But with all those kind of adverse effects around clowning, what drew you to clowning? Like, why? How did you find yourself one day putting on the grease paint?

yeah well so i mean i started making my background's in video games so i've been making video games you know started as a hobby almost 25 years ago uh when i was a teenager um and then you know kept on doing it all the way through university and then got out of university i was like i want to be an indie games developer and This was the early days of the iPhone and the iPad.

So I started making iPhone and iPad games and gradually these games would get weirder and weirder and start involving, you know, bigger touch screens, getting people to run around rooms and hit buttons on walls.

And out of that sprouted my first interactive show, uh, which would have the first time I did, it would have been almost 10 years ago to the day.

Um, It was called The Incredible Playable Show.

And it was a series of video games that I had made that are played on a big screen in an auditorium in a theater.

And I get people up on stage and give them barcode scanners, get them running around the audience, zapping each other.

Help me understand, how does a clown bring that kind of chaos to an audience?