So, I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but how do you square the two between visual being so important and then some of these amazing brands that almost feels like their branding is odd or just like they're not putting their focus on that?

I would say that they are putting their focus on that.

If it's like Basecamp, for example, I believe they do put a lot of time, energy and effort towards their brand.

Have you been on their website? It's their target audience.

So right now, as far as I know, and I'm familiar with Basecamp just through Josh Hall, who we both know, but I think their positioning for their software is through a very creative lens, like a mind that's not as organized.

And I mean, it's still organized, but there's something different with a creative mind.

They use a lot of handwritten fonts and things in their branding.

So what really moves the needle as they start looking at their budget and saying, okay, what can I invest in that's not a waste on this branding? What is worth it to move the needle in your opinion?