Maybe just take us through this area.

Well, I mean, I think just, you know, being known for doing my own artwork over the years, I was and having a lot of friends in the industry, people look to me to like draw certain things for them.

So like some of my friends from the music industry ended up at merchandise companies.

And they represent artists, and they're always looking for new designs for either lithographs or T-shirt designs.

So the Black Sabbath thing was a great opportunity, first of all, one of my favorite fall-time bands, and then having the honor to draw a lithograph for them to celebrate, I think it was the anniversary of Volume 4.

And so I got to illustrate the band members in their 70s look, their 70s era.

So that was one design.

So I got to design my own.

So, I mean, so were these kind of like, were you on like parallel paths with kind of art? Cause you were in school for it and music, like at what point did it kind of like, did you realize that it wasn't just music that you were going to go into this whole other area too? Or was it all kind of that all generate at the beginning?

Well, I actually, I wrote a comic book series in college called wire hangers.

Um, and I'd never really had the confidence to draw it myself until much, much later.

Um, I had, um, you know, I came out of college kind of confused.

I was like drawn to the music because it was so exciting.

It's such a great time for the band as we, we started out in the early nineties and then, you know, experiencing Europe and other cultures and, and just like that whole journey of like, exploring the world at a young age um so that was a lot more exciting than like sitting in my room and drawing at the time and even though that i went and i graduated school of visual arts um with a fine arts degree but um you know the idea of like taking my portfolio around to comic book companies at that early stage when i wasn't that confident in my own work um uh, seemed like a daunting task, you know, and, um, and I left it alone for a while.

I just concentrated on the music and artwork for the bands.

So I got to design my own.