For the purpose of this podcast though, he's our objective outsider.

When you look at the Pacific Islands, for example, we get caught up with a lot of romanticism, and we have a long history with them in the World Cup.

We've seen Wales lose to Pacific Island teams in the Rugby World Cup before.

Samoa is the one that sticks in the mind apart from this one as well, and it's something that we expect the game to be turned on its head.

But perhaps you can tell me, how surprised were you by how shocking it was?

And I'm curious to see what the difference is between us in 2007 and Scotland, who went into that tournament in '07 with a degree of realism as opposed to blind, not just optimism, but blind confidence and self-assurance.

It's an interesting one.

I mentioned momentum earlier, and if you go back to the, the Six Nations, for example, Wales lost to Scotland and Wales lost to everyone.