The Joy of Building: How to Design a Human + Agent Organization with Geoff Schaefer

What happens when AI agents stop being tools we occasionally use and start becoming members of our teams? Geoff Schaefer is literally writing the book on it. Geoff joins Gabrielle to vision what the agentic organization will actually look like, and how we can build it deliberately rather than simply letting it happen to us. They explore Geoff‘s framework for *Building an Agentic Organization*, and Gabrielle’s change framework, spanning strategy, governance, and economics, and get into some of the wonderfully complicated questions hiding underneath “AI transformation.” How do humans and agents divide work? What happens when agents can produce in eight hours what used to take two months? How do you budget for a workforce that includes salaries and tokens? How should an agent earn our trust? And what work becomes more valuable when machines can do almost anything? Along the way, they talk about creativity, radically diverse teams, culture, customer experience, and why some of the most important human work may move both further upstream into imagination and strategy and further downstream toward relationships, judgment, taste, and value. And the theme running through all of it: **agency in getting to build this.** **In this episode** • Why Geoff thinks agents should be treated as **cultural actors**, not just technology • His formula for agent trust: **Earned Trust ≥ Required Trust** • The Strategy, Governance & Economics framework behind his forthcoming book • Why AI may absorb the “midstream” work while humans move upstream and downstream • What happens when AI delivers work faster than organizations can absorb it • Why agent economics may mean managing **token budgets alongside people budgets** • How radically different perspectives make teams more creative • Why joy, curiosity, and creative freedom can become sources of organizational stamina • How working with AI can make us better at communicating our own intent **Your Transformation Gym Rep** Choose one recurring piece of work, ideally something mildly annoying. But don’t simply ask AI to do it. Give the AI a **job description** first. Ask it to interview you about what you’re actually trying to accomplish. Together, create a short role charter: its purpose, responsibilities, constraints, what good looks like, and when it should come back to you. Then do one small piece of the work together. The rep isn’t just about delegation. It’s practice in making your own intent clearer. **About Geoff Schaefer** Geoff Schaefer is an AI strategy and governance leader and the author of the forthcoming *Building an Agentic Organization: The Strategy, Governance, and Economics of Agentic AI*. He previously served as Vice President of AI Strategy and Governance at Leidos and led responsible AI work at Booz Allen Hamilton. He is also one of Gabrielle’s favorite people to call with an unfinished idea because his instinct is rarely “that won’t work.” It’s “how could we build it?” **Resources Mentioned** **Building an Agentic Organization —** Geoff Schaefer’s forthcoming book, expected Spring 2027 https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffschaefer/ **IDEO + Design Thinking** https://designthinking.ideo.com/blog/60-minutes-and-the-future-of-design-thinking **The ELIZA Effect** https://aiethicslab.rutgers.edu/glossary/eliza-effect/ **Kevin Allison + Minerva Technology Futures** https://minervapolicy.com/our-team/ **Keep the conversation going** Who in your life hears “impossible” and gets curious instead of careful? Send them this episode. If *Technically Joyful* is earning a place in your week, follow the show, leave a review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. And send Gabrielle your own AI show-and-tells: the useful, surprising, joyful, or tragically funny experiments you’ve tried. Some may make their way onto the show. **Email: gabrielle@gkstrategic.com** **Ways to Connect with Gabrielle** **Subscribe to *Technically Joyful*** on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube: technicallyjoyful.com **Newsletter:** technicallyjoyful.com **GK Strategic Advisory:** gkstrategic.com **LinkedIn:** linkedin.com/in/gabrielle-kohlmeier