How to Overcome Capitalism – Jason Hickel on Socialism, China, and the West (016)

My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond. In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into ecosocialism as an alternative to capitalism, and what economic democracy actually looks like in practice. We cover China’s rise – how its economy actually works, why the West has turned against it, and what it means for the Global South – and we end with a discussion of how to build the mass movements capable of bringing a better future to life. You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack: https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/ Here are links to the resources mentioned in our conversation: - Mondragon Corporation, the worker-owned cooperative federation in Spain that Jason mentions as a real-world model of economic democracy: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/ - GKN Factory in Florence, Italy, which workers have converted from an auto parts plant into a solar panel factory: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/italy-gkn-factory-occupation-transform-production-workers-jobs-climate-change - Jason’s Substack article on “delinking”: https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/what-is-delinking - Global Inequality Project, a research platform by Jason and team that publishes data on imperialism, unequal exchange, and global inequality: https://globalinequality.org/ Learn more about Jason Hickel and his work: https://www.jasonhickel.org/ Follow Jason Hickel on social media:  Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjasonhickel/  Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jasonhickel.bsky.social Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833 Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/4mgozhfv Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael\\mezz/ Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/ 00:00 What capitalism really is 01:09 Introducing Jason Hickel 02:20 Capitalist imperialism in action: Venezuela, Iran, Lebanon 05:27 Why the US supports Israel 08:45 Capitalism, coups & the war on sovereignty 22:13 How capitalism creates poverty 25:25 Socialism as a solution 31:41 Why solving the climate crisis means overcoming capitalism 36:09 Economic democracy in practice 48:09 Elections vs. revolution: building a mass movement 57:01 The immiseration of the Western working class 59:28 Socialism is our best alternative to fascism  1:06:31 The limits of identity politics 1:13:52 Why the West fears China’s rise 1:20:16 How China builds what the West won’t 1:32:54 Delinking from the capitalist law of value  1:38:02 Hope for a better future 1:46:51 Conclusion Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta Guest: Jason Hickel Editor: Nuria Salgado Designer: Amea Wadsworth Producer: Jade Risser Thanks for watching episode 016. Stay tuned for more!