May 27, 2026 · 56 min · 12 segments
Stan interviews longtime friend and Harvard professor Sheila Heen about why difficult conversations derail and how to handle them more effectively. They discuss the “hero/villain/victim” stories…
Thank you.
It's good to see you, Stan.
I often say I'm excited to talk with guests, but I'm especially excited today because you and I have a long history.
You're a friend.
You're a colleague, someone I respect.
I was thinking this morning, gosh, of all the stories of our time working together, what would be a good one to bring up? So you and I were working up in Canada, and I was doing the exact wrong thing, which was using our time at dinner, the two of us, to vent about one of our colleagues, whose name was Bruce.
And, and Bruce was senior to us, an important person in the organization and in both of our lives.
And I don't even remember what the substance was, but I was venting and going on about how he made this mistake and why didn't he give us more autonomy.
And you just sat there patiently listening, doing a good job of listening.
And as I got to the end of my tirade, you said something that really was impactful to me.
You said, "Stan, I'm really surprised to hear you oversimplify Bruce because Bruce is a complex person.
Yes, he may have done some of those things, but he's also done a lot of good things for both of us." And so tell our listeners, just give them a list of the things I did wrong there in that difficult conversation as an intro.
[laughing] Oh, I'm, I'm so glad you asked.
I've been carrying it around for thirty years.
I don't have a specific memory of that particular conversation, although it sounds like the kind of thing you and I would talk about.
When you're frustrated with someone, doesn't matter how long we've each been doing this as professionals in the negotiation and conflict resolution space, when I'm frustrated with somebody, I do tell a simplistic story about them.
It's that villain/victim/hero story that jumps straight to the forefront 'cause I'm definitely the victim and they're the villain.
And so I don't know.
I make the same mistake even today.
Maybe you've gotten better at it.
I don't know.
Thank you.
It's good to see you, Stan.
I often say I'm excited to talk with guests, but I'm especially excited today because you and I have a long history.
You're a friend.
You're a colleague, someone I respect.
I was thinking this morning, gosh, of all the stories of our time working together, what would be a good one to bring up? So you and I were working up in Canada, and I was doing the exact wrong thing, which was using our time at dinner, the two of us, to vent about one of our colleagues, whose name was Bruce.
And, and Bruce was senior to us, an important person in the organization and in both of our lives.
And I don't even remember what the substance was, but I was venting and going on about how he made this mistake and why didn't he give us more autonomy.
And you just sat there patiently listening, doing a good job of listening.
And as I got to the end of my tirade, you said something that really was impactful to me.
You said, "Stan, I'm really surprised to hear you oversimplify Bruce because Bruce is a complex person.
Yes, he may have done some of those things, but he's also done a lot of good things for both of us." And so tell our listeners, just give them a list of the things I did wrong there in that difficult conversation as an intro.
[laughing] Oh, I'm, I'm so glad you asked.
I've been carrying it around for thirty years.
I don't have a specific memory of that particular conversation, although it sounds like the kind of thing you and I would talk about.
When you're frustrated with someone, doesn't matter how long we've each been doing this as professionals in the negotiation and conflict resolution space, when I'm frustrated with somebody, I do tell a simplistic story about them.
It's that villain/victim/hero story that jumps straight to the forefront 'cause I'm definitely the victim and they're the villain.
And so I don't know.
I make the same mistake even today.
Maybe you've gotten better at it.
I don't know.
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3 of 7
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