Yascha Mounk

It isn't, it isn't to conquer NATO territory and take over Western Europe, it is to undermine and dissolve that solidarity.

And now the Good Fight with Yascha Mounk.

[Instrumental music] A few days ago, Emmanuel Macron summoned leaders of all major French political parties to the Élysée Palace to warn them about the deteriorating security situation in Europe.

A bunch of European governments have been warning about plans by Russia to attack the continent in some kind of way that goes beyond Ukraine.

To be good at politics, Yascha, is to be good at convincing yourself of the things that it's useful for you to believe.

[upbeat music] And now The Good Fight with Yascha Mounk.

Why is it that a lot of people seem to be very courageous in standing up to Donald Trump after he first won office in 2016, and why profiles in courage are much rarer to find in 2024 and its aftermath? How did certain personalities like Meghan Kelly, who was a brave conservative dissenter from Donald Trump the first time around, turn themselves into big cheerleaders for the MAGA movement the second time around? And does all of that actually matter? Is the degree to which people are courageous a big predictor of political outcomes? Did that courage help to rein in Donald Trump in the first term, and yet he was able to get reelected? Did this lack of courage really hurt in the second term? But then why does it feel a little bit as though Donald Trump is finally on his way out of American politics, less popular now than he has been at any point in the last 10 years that he has participated in American politics? Well, to answer these questions, I have on the podcast Jacob Weisberg.

Jacob, uh, was for many years the editor of Slate back when I was writing for Slate, so we've known each other a long time.

He was stripped of his Senate seat and sentenced to seven years, though appeals kept the case running for years afterwards.

A Harvard academic, Yascha Mounk, wrote at the time that Berlusconi's remarkable comeback shows just how difficult it is for a country to rid itself of populists once they have infiltrated the system.

What Berlusconi understood and what made him more durable than Mussolini's model was that a democracy gives the strongman a specific advantage the dictator doesn't have.

If the electorate throws you out, you can come back and run again.