argue or not argue look at the case look at the facts of the matter look at it detach the person from that first and foremost get your view about that and then obviously then engage and and meet the person where they're at

I think the answer depends very much on the culture of your organisation and how open people are, how formal people are.

There might in fact unfortunately be policy requirements about you can only do this until you've done that or there must be certain steps to be done to raise issues and that's the formal side of performance conversations which I don't think any organisation should have.

Government loves it.

Big organisations love it.

Number one, so it's about your culture.

But secondly, I think it's useful to influence that person to say, well, look, unless you have this conversation, then it's only going to get worse.

So I think challenging that tension and working out why it's being offered in the first place.

What are you seeing out there in your practice?

There's a challenge that I'm seeing, and there's a trend.

I think one of the trends is that the, the acknowledgement that everyone has in this room and who might be listening, is that industrial relations, employee relations is core HR business.

So over the last 10 years, I've seen a gradual acceptance b- by some reluctantly to grapple with these topics in a fundamental way to realize that this is really core HR because every difficult grievance, every payment decision, every contract that you're responsible in managing will have a ramification, and it may well come up in the sort of scenario that Catherine was talking about.

So that's a bit of a trend issue which I've seen.

Related to that, I think is, is the biggest challenge is still making decisions and not letting the complexity, and the AI, and the long grievances to deviate from, I think, HR's role in assisting an organization to make decisions about who stays and who goes.

And a lot of the topics that we all would advise our clients on are about exiting employees who don't fit, or the structure doesn't fit for the work they're doing any longer, or there might be conduct or performance issues.

Will, what are your thoughts?