And not only did they give up the foundation to OKC's championship team, but now they're getting hit with five more picks, and they got squat to show for it.

You know, it's funny.

I just thought about that because that was at the tail end, so to speak, of quote-unquote "player empowerment" era, right? Like, we, we aren't in that anymore.

But I wonder if a player who fits that particular profile, Finals MVP, perhaps the best two-way player in the game, injury risk, if he is a possible free agent in today's era, would that player still hold that type of leverage over the entire league? Remember, that summer it wasn't just the Clippers going for him.

The Lakers really wanted him.

Toronto wanted to keep him.

There were a multitude of teams, despite everything we knew about Kawhi Leonard from a health standpoint and what we found out about from him and Uncle Dennis later, that really, really wanted him.

I want a team a lot of places.

Embiid probably 40-ish based on his recent history, and then LeBron-

He played, he's played 57 the last two years if I remember correctly, and LeBron I wanna say played 51.

Or maybe 60 last year.

I'm sorry, I was gonna say 51.

He played 51 a couple y- somewhere, whatever it was.

But Maxie and Edgecombe are going to play, and Jaylen Brown is going to play.

Like, short of some type of injury, they're all gonna play.

So I, I wanna hear your, your informed take here.

We've had Pods on the pod, you know?

Oh, that, that makes sense.

No, I, I do think that even if he's not as good as he thinks he is, even if he's not as good as Steve Kerr thinks he is, I still think that's a really good NBA player that if placed in the right role, you know, he can, he does, quote-unquote, all the quote-unquote little things and everything else.

He's like sometimes like a little gnat and sometimes, and I, I'm saying the most positive way.

But this is a guy that's been really productive since coming to the league, stepping in and playing in different positions.

You wouldn't call him a n- a natural point guard, at least I wouldn't.

You know, but he, he's, he's a basketball player.

If you have space, and even if it's not straight free agency, if you have space, a team can say or a guy can say, "I wanna be here," you know, "I wanna be a certain spot."

We've had Pods on the pod, you know?

Oh, that, that makes sense.

No, I, I do think that even if he's not as good as he thinks he is, even if he's not as good as Steve Kerr thinks he is, I still think that's a really good NBA player that if placed in the right role, you know, he can, he does, quote unquote, all the quote unquote little things and everything else.

He's like sometimes like a little gnat and sometimes, and I, I'm saying the most positive way, but this is a guy that's been really productive since coming to the league, stepping in and playing in different positions.

You wouldn't call him a, a natural point guard, at least I wouldn't.

You know, but he, he's, he's a basketball player.

I'll, you know, that's the way I, I'll give him.

But if you have, if you have space, and even if it's not straight free agency, if you have space, a team can say or a guy can say, "I wanna be here." You know, "I wanna be a certain spot."

I'm gonna be paying attention to his interviews even if that's not gonna be what the, what the overall consensus is gonna be.

That's an interesting point, Wendy, because when I look at Philly, the person who I'm watching more than Jaylen Brown for whatever reason, I understand, I understand your answer, more than even LeBron James, I'm gonna be watching Joel Embiid because he's the guy who has a regular season MVP to his record but doesn't have a conference finals to his record.

He's the guy that's played, what, a grand total of 58 games in the last two years.

Like, he's, he's the guy that has been there through all these different iterations of a Philadelphia 76ers roster built around him.

James Harden, Ben Simmons, uh, Jimmy Butler, like all those players have been built to augment him.

Where does, where does this fit now? Like, how much pressure is on him to stay on the floor, to stay in shape, to be defensively, I think he can be defensively, I don't know if he can be that anymore.

I don't know if he can be that vortex because his movement, if you saw that second round series against the Knicks, they ran everything at him and exploited him.

Of course he's gonna be

... is the purpose of what a hard cap is.

And here's the thing 'cause I, I asked the question at Adam Silver's press conference, and I got a bunch of, you know, dirty looks from the front of the room.

Not Adam Silver, but just you guys know who sits in the front of the room.

I got a couple of dirty looks when I said, when I asked the question about not necessarily forced parity, but the players, I won't say they, they, they don't lose, but they get their money, right? The league gets its share of whatever this is.

I think the fans, by and large, lose out, and not on a Lou Dort situation, but when you look at Victor Wembanyama taking less than he should.

I don't think, just my personal opinion, if it's your first big contract, I do not think that if you're a max player you should take less.

That's just me.

But there is a, we've got a who's who of players, um, all-NBA players that are still kind of hanging out, out there.

Yep

... all of this has come out.

They got ESPN.

Like, they know what's been reported about Kawhi being traded there on, you know, whenever it, whenever the day that it was.

The problem is the Raptors can now, cannot conduct real league business because they were operating under the guise that probably nothing was going to happen to Kawhi Leonard.

You're not giving up all that draft capital and everything that they gave up if you are going to believe that Kawhi Leonard is going to be heavily penalized for this investigation.

They didn't...

Like-

Yep

... all of this has come out, they got ESPN.

Like, they know what's been reported about Kawhi being traded there on, you know, whenever it, whenever the day that it was.

The problem is the Raptors can now, cannot conduct real league business because they were operating under the guise that probably nothing was going to happen to Kawhi Leonard.

You're not giving up all that draft capital and everything that they gave up if you are going to believe that Kawhi Leonard is going to be heavily penalized for this investigation.

They didn't...

That's, that's not what this was pr- reported to us by Shams.

Yeah, I guess so.

And then it gets into, it gets into the CBA and the cap rules and the apron, and he says, "It's really hard to tie up that much money in your salary cap for one player unless they're truly generational, and he's not even close to that." Also said, "The league is getting smarter now, and here's the thing, the dumb teams are the cheap teams." So the Celtics weren't even in a position to try to capitalize on a quote-unquote dumb team because they're not bringing in a guy who has 180 something million over the next three years left on his deal and who wants an extension off of that, off of those numbers.

That, and that's the key thing there.

He was going to be up for an extension, two years, $140 million.

The reason that you see more trades and not free agency nowadays is because the trade market is free agency, and if you have not made a, a decision that your franchise player is worth that extension, then you have to trade him.

If your franchise player has said, "I'm not taking this extension," then you have to trade him.

This was coming sooner this summer rather than later, even if the Giannis stuff did not happen.

This was loom, this was looming, right? And the Celtics, the problem is that the order of operations of the way that things happen present really bad optics.

But they were really top-heavy to start with.

The Kawhi Leonard trade makes the Toronto Raptors what?

The New York Knicks nervous.

That's what they make.

They make the Knicks a little bit nervous.

Not the trade by itself, but now you open the door, CeCe.

for other subsequent moves.

Now you become a trade deadline destination because if Kawhi Leonard is healthy, and we all know this whole thing about Kawhi and health is a thing, but Kawhi aspires to be a championship player.

What's next for LA?

The Kawhi Leonard trade makes the Toronto Raptors what?

The New York Knicks nervous.

That's what they make.

They make the Knicks a little bit nervous.

Not the trade by itself, but now you open the door, CeCe.

for other subsequent moves.

Now you become a trade deadline destination because if Kawhi Leonard is healthy, and we all know this whole thing about Kawhi and health is a thing, but Kawhi aspires to be a championship player.

What's next for LA?

And then for the Suns, it's just, it's a swing at a, at a significant talent.

You know what? I give Jeff Peterson [clears throat] and the Charlotte Hornets a lot of credit, 'cause you know how many people Would have taken that sample size of how we finished the season and going into the play-in.

And, you know, of course, they got waxed by Orlando, uh, in Orlando to get them knocked out of the playoffs.

They would have taken that, especially in a basketball market like Charlotte, and said, "Look at all the progress.

We're going to build on that.

We're gonna keep LaMelo Ball.

We're going to keep all these guys [clears throat] and build on it." And he said, "You know what? This ain't it." It takes a sober executive, it takes someone who's got some real-life sobriety to say, like, "You know what? This ain't it.

He took a pay cut in the last one.

So what do you think teams will actually be looking for? Is it gonna, is it, is it seriously going to take that much? Or could there be an offer where maybe there's another player packaged in there and it might lessen the cost for Boston?

You can ask for whatever you want, Courtney.

It doesn't mean it, that you're going to get it, especially if you're the Boston Celtics at this point.

When you look at Jaylen Brown's contract, remember he's eligible for two years, $140 million on the extension on top of the contract he has already.

You have to factor that in.

The financial realities of where the NBA is, you cannot ignore what you're gonna have to pay a player like Jaylen Brown and where your team is to absorb a player like that.

If he's gonna be your best player, then you have to understand, like, okay, are we going to be contending? Or if he's your second-best player, you know where you're going to be because you know if he's your second-best player, you can get to the NBA finals.

Do you think that he'd be better off leaving LA?

Right

... against the guy who can fire him at any time without any financial responsibility for it.

So you're gonna ask the guy who's made over, you know, $200 million, who the public trusts and everything goes, and Damian Lillard, and he has to speak for this guy? Like, this is...

The NBA and Adam Silver really screwed the pooch, unless they were in such a situation where they were afraid of the Portland Trail Blazers being moved by somebody else, that they were backed into this.

Like, I, I will grant Wendy this.

Whenever new owners come into situations, unless they are a minority owner in the NBA already, it takes a few years to get assimilated to NBA culture.

Like, every NBA owner that comes in thinks that they can run their NBA team like their local business that warranted them billions of dollars.

Yeah.

And the Bulls got to get that player.

Yeah.

There was a team in the top 10 that had AJ Dobbins at number one and had Caleb Wilson number two, had Peterson all the way down at four, and that was the weirdest of the top four that I had ever, that I had seen of the top four.

I was just really fascinated.

Like, one and two was kinda tricky.

Like, if you polled 20 executives yesterday, and I might have polled 30, it was half and half.

Legitimately half and half.

Yep

Right, that's what

I'm saying.

But you know who you can rely on when it gets down to it.

And that's what I'm saying with Jalen Brunson.

Now, face of the league conversation, that's really interesting because people are trying to thrust that onto Jalen Brunson because best player on the New York Knicks.

I think you have to have a magnetic personality to be face of the league, CeCe.

Magnetic personality, great story, extremely great athlete, and you have to want it and go above and beyond with the media.

Big time.

It didn't feel like a NBA finals game at all, to be honest.

It felt more like an event, and I think the players got...

It's real easy to get wrapped up in that when everything in New York is NBA finals, 1973, we haven't been here, we got a chance to go up 3-0.

Not that they came out tight, but the game felt like an afterthought.

It felt more like a celebration of New York basketball, a celebration of everything, and y'all forgot that the San Antonio Spurs wasn't just gonna lay down for y'all.

And that's what happened yesterday.

They had been, what, 46 days since they'd lost?

Losing it.

Of course, you'll hear it right here on ESPN Radio at 8.30 p.m. p.m eastern time 7 30 p.m eastern pre-game show and joining us now espn nba analyst writer vincent vince vinnie vincenzo goodwill joining us here and on sportsman like i believe you had the q a with mike brown yesterday or two days ago when he was talking about carl anthony towns and his leadership and management of him it was a great question and a great answer what did you learn about brown and towns after asking that question

that you can go viral by asking very simple questions because very complicated answers come and all of a sudden it's a great question.

But I knew that their relationship was a little bit rocky to start the season.

So knowing that you asked the question because you're having like a moment.

And Mike Brown was pretty humble, I think, in the answer and saying, hey, you know, I think I have a great plan.

And the next thing you know, the player doesn't like the plan.

And there's like basically saying two steps forward, three steps back, five steps forward, one step back.

Why not take the time out there? Why put Victor in a situation where if he misses it, you're down 0-2 going to the garden?

Of course, you'll hear it right here on ESPN Radio at 8.30 p.m. p.m eastern time 7 30 p.m eastern pre-game show and joining us now espn nba analyst writer vincent vince vinnie vincenzo goodwill joining us here and on sportsman like i believe you had the q a with mike brown yesterday or two days ago when he was talking about carl anthony towns and his leadership and management of him it was a great question and a great answer what did you learn about brown and towns after asking that question

that you can go viral by asking very simple questions because very complicated answers come and all of a sudden it's a great question but i knew that their relationship was a little bit rocky to start the season so you knowing that you asked the question because you're having like a moment and he and mike brown was pretty humble i think in the answer and saying hey You know, I think I have a great plan.

And the next thing you know, the player doesn't like the plan.

And there's like basically saying two steps forward, three steps back, five steps forward, one step back.

Like that sort of thing.

So for a coach to remove his ego and to say, hey, the play, like the customer's always right, the player's always right.

You don't hear dudes say that.

Why not take the time out there? Why put Victor in a situation where if he misses it, you're

Did you have the same feeling last night?

Yeah, I did.

Not in the same manner, like, as dramatic as that game one in Cleveland was and went into overtime and every...

You could see how that was developing.

This one, you could see it developing over the course of the second half.

San Antonio was not getting great shots at the rim.

Julian Champagnie, once he cooled off, you could tell, okay, the Knicks can take a hold of the game defensively.

Yeah

Mm-hmm

... with Joel Embiid, and he has debunked a little bit of that history with how he played in the last three games against the Boston Celtics, particularly game seven, when we know that he's hurting.

But he's always hurting.

Like, people, the people who say, "What will Joel Embiid, what will the 76ers be if he's healthy?" You can't ask that question because he's always going to be ...

He always looks like he's, "I'm coming home to you, Elizabeth." I swear he looks like that every time he gets off the floor.

So you can't factor health into the equation or assume that you're gonna have best case scenario.

But I will say in this particular series, this is styles makes fights.

[laughs]

resetAnd that for the second game in a row, Mike Brown frankly screwed up the timeouts and left the Knicks with only one in the final 10 seconds of the game, and it played a part in them losing the game.

Here, here's what I will point out.

I'll point out two things, 'cause one, our seats in Atlanta were right sort of very high, but right behind the Knicks bench, and all of the assistants were yelling at Mike Brown to go challenge the play.

He didn't see the play like the assistants see the play.

They, they didn't even wait, wait for it on the jumbotron.

Secondarily, on that last play, and I'm not sure if everybody caught it, I'm going to give Jonathan Kaminga a whole lot of credit for going in and chasing Jalen Brunson exact- knowing where he was gonna go for that step back, driving right, messed up his line of sight, le- like left his man.

Like, that's a play that doesn't wind up in anybody's score book or anything like that, doesn't go into Jonathan Kaminga, you know, highlight package.

Hunted relentlessly

Um, Do you view them as a clear favorite in the East? The betting markets show that this Celtics team has the most public belief

behind them.

I wouldn't say clear favorite.

I think people are putting a little too much dip on their chip.

When it comes like the Celtics, they sound like a great idea.

And I get why, like when you see what they did without Tatum and Brown and you see like people like Baylor Shireman out here, like hitting the seven threes in the game, Peyton Pritchard doing, he does like Kata, like they're doing things with people you haven't heard of compared to last year.

When you hit the Drew holidays and the poor Zingas is guys, the, the name brands that you knew of, and they flamed down the second round, the Tatum injury last year did something that I think we kind of skipped over a little bit.

So I'm interested to see if anyone's figured out any way to effectively get points in the paint while Wimby is there.

I, I don't like this idea of a statement game from a champion and a Finals MVP, Jaylen Brown, but I think he felt a certain way about the way this game went down.

Yeah.

He looked like he was playing the game on a mission, especially early in the game when the Celtics ...

It seemed-- I don't know if it seemed like this to you, Wendy and Slater, from watching from afar.

It seemed like the Thunder were just on the verge of blowing Boston out in the first and second quarter, and you just look up and you're thinking they're down 15, and they were down, like, seven.

And Boston just kept hitting a shot or two to keep themselves close, and then Jaylen Brown went and did the things that Shai Gilgeous-Alexander does, like the, the step back, the pump fake, the lean in, and I'm gonna get fouled by you on your shot and hit a three-point play.

Like, there was a extra degree of force from Jaylen Brown last night.

Right.

Breathing sounds painful

... from DC.

Yeah, everything's painful, right? So after the two-week period, the hope is that for one week he will be able to engage in non-basketball, non-contact basketball activities.

And then in the fourth week, the hope is that he will be able to participate in contact basketball activities to get his wind back, to figure things out.

If that's the case, that puts you at April 14th.

The regular season will have concluded.

I think it's April 13th is the final day, at least for Detroit.

And so they brought Giannis back and he got hurt again, and now they're, you know, in a stare down with him.