In terms of failure and how you define failure, what was the moment in your career that you'd learnt the most from, despite it not being an initial success?

I mean, there's a lot of failure, and for me personally, I'm someone who remembers the things that went wrong more than the things that went well, because that's my, like, annoyingly, that's my personality trait.

Actually, it was really interesting.

I, for me, after I'd finished fourth at the World Championships in Stuttgart, and that was at the very beginning of my career, and then had the opportunity to qualify for Athens Olympics.

No one expected me to.

I'd just come out of uni.

I'd been, you know, being like, "I'm gonna get my education first," 'cause world class hadn't really established itself yet.

This is right how we should be doing things"?

... and then going and doing it anyway?

So most of our concerns are almost like we like ...

It's very easy to sort of catastrophize.

You know, think, "Oh, it's gonna be this, it's gonna be that, and it's gonna be that," before we've even got there and experienced it.

And it's almost like creating more barriers than necessary there.

So it's kind of thinking, "Well, you know, I might ...

I, I am gonna be, um, picking up this for the first time.

... uh, and so how have you pivoted, and how has that discomfort created, uh, a new strength and power in you by the, by the fear of leaving the sport and then finding a new life on the other side?

It must have been, apart from the medals, you must have found it difficult to find a, a positive in all that.

Well, I love training.

Like, being able to train every day is an absolute gift from the gods.

To be in, like, peak physical condition, um, and using your body to its fullest potential, that is a gift, and I really appreciate that, and I love that experience.

And, and, and getting better and improving and, you know, plotting it down as data and seeing the numbers get better was the reassur- was reassuring and, and satisfying to me in many ways.

So that, that was the thing that I kind of have, have realized drove me to continue in that environment.

But in my new book, well, in The Fear Opportunity, I've kind of talked about not putting barriers in the way from allowing yourself to achieve your goals.

Mm.

Mm.

So measured.

Every mistake and flaw would be my, would be human error.

To a point where you're experiencing a sh- a partnership with a, with a beautiful animal who is much bigger and stronger than you, [laughs] and you have to accept that you haven't got control, you've relinquished control, uh, in many ways, and you're working together, and you're trying to read and be intuitive about the moment.

And I, I, I would say, received much more from that experience than any cycling experience.

And I think also the fact that the odds were stacked right against me.

People didn't expect me to be able to do that.

... is the ultimate, isn't it? So, how, how did you find that world compared to the cycling world?

Mm

... and I feel very privileged in that respect, that I've done some awesome things.

But I just feel like quite often when I'm talking about my experiences and the challenges I've taken, everyone's like, "Wow, I would never do that." And I'm like, "Why wouldn't you?" "Oh, because, you know, I haven't...

You know, that's not me, and I'm not very sporty, and I'm not this, I'm not that." People put so many barriers in between them and everything else, and I just wanted to help people kind of break them down, use lots of research from experts, neuroscientists, psychologists, to help people take, like, key takeaways to hopefully make them overcome their fear and be a bit more fearless in their lives.

Because do you know what? There's so much good stuff out there, and I have serious FOMO.

But I really, I'm so glad that I say yes more often than no and just give things a go.

Uh, d- was there a point at which fear was a problem for you in your life, and that you felt that you needed to overcome it?

Yeah, I mean, I think the most of the ways that I've managed to get through life is by survival mechanism, by dealing with the fear.

You wrote in the book.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I, I kind of feel like I've always had this need to, to push myself and a, and a need to sort of improve, and I love learning.

I love learning new things and new sports, and I don't mind being a novice about it.

And I have-- I, I kind of, after my brother passed away, and I was talking to one of my friends, and I was saying, "Gosh, is there something wrong with me? Like, why do I live my life like this? I- I'm doing all these things, and I've always chosen sort of challenges and bizarre pursuits and said yes to things that perhaps I should've said no to, like horse racing." Um, and I was like, "But I think I've made the right choices, and I've had some really incredible experiences." Like, I want to encourage people to be a little bit more courageous.

And I kind of got to thinking that my brother was a big part of my fearlessness because having a, somebody next to you growing up gave me a sense of fearlessness in many ways, and I can attribute a lot of my characteristics from having a twin brother.

... which you've been writing about, do you just think we don't take as much pleasure in pushing ourselves out of our comfort zones, especially as we get older?

... it's just about you need to win, you need to win medals to get, to keep your funding.

That's right.

I mean, and also, like, having balance.

Anybody's life who's out of ban- balance will not be performing in an optimal way, optimal way.

Um, a- and sometimes when you're an athlete, all the normal human experiences are slipped a- stripped away.

So maybe you stop your education for the sport and you, you give up and you, you lose that.

Um, uh, or you give up being around your friends and family because you have to live in this training center and train here or...

I mean, I, I mean, where's that drive come from?

... did you ever cry? And what would cause-

Oh, yeah.

All the time.

I used to go back to my room and just be like, "Oh, God.

Why am I putting myself through this? This is terrible.

No one believes in me except my dad, who's furiously in my corner, and my brother." And I was like, "Do I, do I not...

Maybe I don't have it.

Yeah.