Thomas Wilkins

[laughs]

But it was, you know, it was a, it was a fun-- You're not gonna beat those guys.

[laughs] But it was a fun experience with that, and then I went, you know, whatever it was, uh, 14 years, 15 years, uh, without any of that kind of stuff happening.

And then, so it was a cool thing that, um, this album that I made called Tree Falls, um, that I kinda worked on for about 10 years.

Like, it was so human and full of life and dynamics and, and, and intention and, and we're, we're like, "Where are you hearing one?" 'Cause it looked like he was spray painting the side of a building.

Like, it just, you couldn't tell where the downbeat was.

Um, and he was like, "Well," he's like, "I'm not gonna, I won't conduct the, the, um, the vowels for," or, "I, I won't conduct the consonants for you guys.

I'm giving you the vowels." He's like, "You gu-

So the very first time I had an all African-American orchestra on that stage, I conducted and there were a number of amazing composers.

The great Thomas Wilkins also conducted as well.

A lot of great arrangers came on to be a part, but that was also the orchestra themselves were sourced.

They were the recollective orchestra who had been doing a lot of things and still are all around, you know, employing and hiring a lot of African American musicians.