the husband doesn't have as many friends as she has they wouldn't go out and do things if if the wife didn't say hey this is what we're going to go do on saturday night so they're like the social director in some cases they're the chef like you know they're i'm going to just really boldly say that that marriage works better for men than women

and yeah that's the problem Well, there's research on that.

Married men don't get sick.

Single men get much sicker.

Married men don't have as many psychiatric symptoms.

Single men do.

Married women are generally less happy, more symptomatic, and physically more ill than single women.

Like, you know, I'm going to just really boldly say that marriage works better for men than women.

And of course, if, if you are comparing your reality with this mythical idea of perfection, well, of course, there's gonna be a problem in your relationships.

Well, that's how we live.

We live with all these bullshit ideas.

Uh, look, the intimacy that we want with each other, all genders need to move beyond traditional gender roles because they're not built for it, and all of us need to move beyond patriarchy because it's not built for it.

So what do I mean? Well, let's look at men.

Uh, the essence of traditional masculinity to this day is invulnerability.

The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are.

We are all equal, and we should try and treat each other as equal as well.

Would that affect a man's, I guess, mental state?

Yeah, in all sorts of ways.

First of all, let me just talk about the traditional code, and then we can talk about some of the ways in which it's shifting.

Traditionally, what does it mean to be a man? It's really simple.

Invulnerability.

Just that.

Just remember that.

If you're talking to a chat bot and then you build a relationship with this chat bot that's always validating you in a real life situation, it's scary to think how that person who's consistently validated would react in a negative situation or when somebody says no. Sonia,

It is an art.

So one thing is we don't know what to do.

We literally don't know what to do, and we have to be taught.

But the other thing is when you're in disharmony, you get triggered.

So what this particular disharmony looks like with this particular partner, because you picked them, is your unfinished business.

I was raised by a angry dad, like a lot of men.

My wife Linda was raised in an angry family, so we're both fighters.

Maybe this isn't for me." And it's not natural to feel that chemistry for 20, 30, 40 years, is it? We're built to feel chemistry in that initial spark of a way when we first meet, but chemistry can be defined in different ways, in different perceptions as we go through a long-term relationship.

And I wanted to ask you, what is happening to men as a result of this shift?

That's a great question.

You know, someone once described my work as women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it.

I'll tell you, let's unpack that.

It's worth pausing on for a moment.

Women are demanding more and putting up with less.

Okay, why? Well...

That's it.

What is the number one mistake that therapists make when they're in this situation trying to help a couple?

That's great.

I run around the world lecturing therapists saying there's some design flaws.

Here's the first one.

In the work I've created called Relational Life Therapy, RLT, You can go to my website and find RLT therapists all over the world now.

The number one mistake that we're all taught in couples therapy is don't take sides, and particularly don't side with a woman against a man.

Everything is 50-50.

And I know that you've talked about dominance before, but is it really a cancer to a relationship?

So perhaps you can tell us about that because people might not recognize they've got that kind of trauma.

This is from one of my great mentors, a woman named Pia Mellody, P-I-A M-E-L-L-O-D-Y.

I, I, I was working with men back in the eighties and nineties, and there was this split.

There were domestic violence programs and 12-step programs and feminist programs that held men's feet to the fire, but they weren't very empathic.And, and then there was traditional therapy which dealt with men's wounds but acted as if they never heard the word sexism or offensive behavior before.

And I, uh, having been raised by an angry, violent man, I needed to find a way to hold men accountable and lovingly in the same breath.

And it was really this idea from Pia that unlocked that.

There isn't one form of abuse, there's two.

I love the idea of painting it as heroic because I think, number one, it is, but I think it's also much easier to convince men to do this work if you frame it as heroic work because this is an idea that they can take on board rather than it being a place of weakness.

[chuckles]

Uh, and fawn as an adult becomes fix, or, uh, codependence, or enabling, anxious attachment style.

Fight, flight, fawn.

That's pretty good to keep it to those threeUm, so the survival instinct, not thinking part of us, uh, that actually sits on top of an even younger part of us, which we call the wounded child part of us.

This is the part of us that just experienced the trauma, which could be active.

It could be violation, you know, beating, yelling, screaming, sex.

Uh, but it could also be passive.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Gone are our grandparents, even our parents, companion- side by side, pay the bills, raise the kids, no passion, no communication, fine, stable, good enough.

That's gone.

We wanna walk hand-in-hand on the beach.

We want hard talk...

We want great sex in 70s and 80s.

We wanna be lifelong lovers.

Yeah

She's wonderful.

Yeah, and she th- said, "He's wonderful.

Let me tell you about Andrew and what's gonna happen." And she, like, read me through the whole thing.

And little, uh, I'm not gonna get into it, but my fears about, "Well, uh, we're gonna disagree about this, and we're gonna ..." "No, you're not.

Uh, let me tell you how it is." And after I was done talking to her, I was chilled.

Uh, that's a, that's a blessing that what men lose when we don't, uh, uh, when we're not in touch with our vulnerabilities is we lose the capacity to ask somebody to help them.

But it's ask someone, not demand.

Let's say I'm not, then what does the work look like?

I'm glad you can remember it because I can't.

I'm probably just a little.

We're going for quantity time here, not quality time.

Remember.

I'm probably a shade less ADD than you are, but a shade.

So what I figured out about men was what's wrong is the lack of relationship.

That's what's killing us.

Is that pre-verbal? Just feeling it.

Hmm.

Uh, y- you can't ask somebody to do what you're not doing.

S- a- a- and if you do it, that will speak volumes more than whatever you tell them.

Uh, so you be open.

Talk about...

He, he's old enough.

Talk about your childhood.

Hmm.

Thanks.

You have to do this with a light touch.

Be relational.

Push a little, but don't jam it down their throats, but be willing to push a little.

You know, that's such a sad...

I just got sad listening to you, my friend, and You know, your father telling others that you've done a better job than he.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, what's your advice for fathers who might be listening to this who look back? In hindsight, they're hearing everything you're saying and they're like, oh my gosh, I feel like I could have done better.

And Daniel learned that because, unlike a lot of couples therapists, Terry takes sides, tries to get to the truth of what's going on, what's behind a couple's behavior.

I started off, my beat were couples on the brink of divorce that no one has been able to help.

These women would drag these guys in, and I would lean in and tell them, "She's right.

You're wrong.

This is what's gonna happen if you don't shape up.

This is what you could get if you do.

You're a good guy.

Hmm.

So could you fill in the blanks with that particular story please?

So as you know, Tim, my specialty is a couple on the brink that no one else has been able to, to help.

That's what I've been doing for 20 years, and that's what I teach.

So here was a couple on the brink.

The issue was that he was a chronic liar.

I teach my therapists, you pay attention to what people report, you pay attention to what they do in front of you, and you pay attention to how you feel.

And he's one of these guys, I walk in and I go, "The sky is blue." And he goes, "Well, not really blue.

But I would love to know, are there challenges for monogamy now that didn't seem to exist 20 or 30 years ago that, or that are just much more exaggerated now?