Does that mean that Germany needs more help? Can Germany even do what needs to be done alone? Nina, is Germany far enough? I'll come in here because,

Max, I did want to make the same point about not throwing around the term war too loosely, because if it's a war, then when you're a member of NATO and a member of the European Union, you are likely to ask your partners to join you you know you have article four consultations we're under attack we feel threatened and then of course article five is is the the top limit where you ask them to actually go on attack for you which we should point out has never happened except on 9 11. now we are not anywhere near that level this is not something that that i believe germany is considering at the moment and other countries, Poland, the Baltic states have been under these kind of attacks already.

It does say something that now Russia is going after Germany in a much more focused way because we have had, you know, a shopping center lit on fire in Poland, which has been traced back to Russia.

We have had even personal attacks on people in the Baltic states, which have in court cases, in prosecutions, been linked linked back to russia but what russia is very careful to do is to pay low-level proxies as i think nina mentioned because that takes a lot longer if it even can be linked back to the state and that's what you have to have in order to for example um mount a you know a defense with your allies um i think that today um mark rutte and and ursula von der lion the european commission chief are having conversations about just how they can team up to affect lower level responses.

And it is very tricky.

How do you go after guys that get paid a few hundred euros from the internet to go set off a bomb somewhere? I think that this message on the planes is significantly different because there you could have a mass casualty event.

And Russia wanted wanted everyone to know that they could do that.

Is that what you're hearing around NATO?