Steven Joyce

What it also does is removes that talent pipeline that they've got right now through the list.

You know, Steven Joyce came in off the list.

He did.

Um-

Yeah.

But it, it is, it's always close even when it doesn't feel like that because honestly, I mean, Steven Joyce was our campaign manager the whole way through and, and I remember, you know, forget about the '08 election 'cause it was first round and all the rest of it, but I remember in '11 and '14 we were pulling our socks off.

You know, we were-

Mm

No.

But I think what's interesting a- about the supermarkets is, um, if you look at the ideology, I mean, National going back, um, you know, the, um, Labor Party started on the path of breaking up Telecom and then, uh, Steven Joyce and co ripped Chorus out of there to do the, um, ultra-fast broadband.

So, you know-

Right

[sighs] Yeah.

Well, I would put it to you that Steven Joyce, the former senior national minister, he opened the floodgates when he mandated hundreds of dodgy language schools, and that created a lot of harm for kids coming from the Third World, including India, and then they came and they became exploited by their own people here.

So u- immigration became a quick fix to boosting GDP.

And productivity, as you and I both know, a somewhat labored word, but it's at the end of the day the arbiter whether or not your society and your economy's growing and creating more wealth.