Mais il n'y a pas grand-chose qu'on puisse faire.

Non, moi, je ne suis pas d'accord.

On n'en fait pas assez.

Mais, tu sais, quand j'étais ministre de l'Environnement, pour la première fois dans l'histoire du pays, on a réussi à réduire notre pollution climatique alors que l'économie augmentait.

On a réussi à montrer que même dans le quatrième plus grand producteur de pétrole et de gaz au monde, c'est possible de faire ça.

On est à peu près à 9 %.

Je n'ai pas vu les derniers chiffres par rapport au niveau de pollution de 2005.

message, est-ce que les jeunes embarquent? Est-ce que les jeunes sont blasés? Parce que moi, je m'imagine, tu as 20 ans aujourd'hui, tu entends ça, tu te dis « fuck », qu'est-ce qui nous attend?

» Mais là, j'ai l'impression, Steven, que tout le monde parle, tout le monde lit les mêmes nouvelles, tout le monde constate la même chose, mais il y a pas grand-chose qu'on puisse faire.

Non, moi, je suis pas, je suis pas d'accord avec.

On n'en fait pas assez.

Mais tu sais, quand j'étais ministre de l'Environnement, là, pour la première fois dans l'histoire du pays, on a réussi à réduire notre pollution climatique alors que l'économie augmentait.

On a réussi à montrer que même dans le quatrième plus grand producteur de pétrole et de gaz au monde, c'est possible de, de, de faire ça.

Euh, on est à peu près à 9 %.

Là, j'ai pas vu les derniers chiffres, là, par rapport au, au niveau de pollution de, de 2005.

ça.Ton, ton message, est-ce que les jeunes embarquent ? Est-ce que les jeunes sont blasés ? Parce que moi, je m'imagine, t'as vingt ans aujourd'hui, t'entends ça, tu dis : Fuck, qu'est-ce qui nous attend ?

Can you explain that?

I said less bad news, uh, in the case of the pipeline route because from an environmental perspective, going to the north would've been an environmental catastrophe.

So at least now it seems we want to explore a southern route, which would follow along the corridor of existing pipelines, m- namely Trans Mountain, TMX.

So it's not, it's not a good news, but it's less bad news.

And, um, I mean, in terms of the overall a- announcement, we're announcing at a time where we're seeing, uh, record temperatures, heat waves in northeastern North America, in southern France, in, uh, more than 59 degree Celsius at the thermometer before humidity in, in southern Pakistan.

We're saying we're going to fuel more climate change.

I mean, that's not what we said, but that's basically what we're doing.

Are you disappointed with Mark Carney?

And now it's like a passing conversation no one really wants to get into, it seems.

Clearly, things have changed over the last few years.

The tariff war with the US, the constant threat in one form or another by President Trump.

The geopolitical situation is much more complicated.

But when you start digging in, really, I mean, Canadians still care deeply about climate change.

It just so happens right now they care more about other things.

Cost of living has certainly had an influence, but there was a poll done, I believe, by Abacus, David Coletto, a few weeks ago, saying that for 40% of Canadians, it's still a very important issue.

How worried are you about our future, your kids' future, so much else? I mean, when you look around, you can't be overjoyed.

Do you understand the change that he's made?

Oh, well, I'm, I knew Mark before I knew Prime Minister Carney 'cause I have worked with him over the years on i- the issue of climate change, uh, n- nature protection, when he was special envoy to the Secretary General of the United Nations on climate finance, and I, I must confess that I'm having a hard time understanding the change in, in direction on, uh, on something he has spoken about, uh, written about at length, which is the issue of climate change, and how he himself has m- m- many time referred to it as, you know, the, the challenge of our, of our times.

And one could argue, well, you know, I mean, when he wrote those things, he wasn't the leader of a G7 country.

There was, there was no trade war with, with the United States.

Some of those things are true.

Some of them are not.

Uh, when he ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party, Donald Trump was already president of the United States.

Were you happy about that?

What slows things up?

Well, I think.

I think.

Government departments and civil servant tend to be risk averse.

And when they present options to ministers or cabinet or the prime minister, they want to make sure that, you know, they've dotted all the I's and cross all the T's.

So...

When I arrive as environment minister, the Department of Environment has been working on this thing called a clean fuel standard, which is something that the BC government has done, US, California, many other, Europe is doing that.

So what has the government done that has caused you to resign first from cabinet and then from parliament?

Ben...

Tous les gouvernements posent des gestes qui ne sont pas toujours conséquents avec les politiques publiques qui se donnent.

Il n'y a pas un gouvernement qui est conséquent 100 % du temps.

Ça ne se peut pas.

Mais parlons du pipeline.

Moi, je n'étais pas d'accord avec le pipeline.

Je l'ai même dit quand je me suis présenté pour le Parti libéral parce qu'ils avaient fait ça avant que j'arrive.

Puis tous les jets privés qui t'amènent là, les limousines qui te traînent là, Steven, c'est un cirque.

En 2019.

Ils ont acheté le pipeline en 2018.

Quand je me suis présenté en 2019, j'ai dit : Moi, je suis d'accord avec un paquet d'affaires que le gouvernement Trudeau fait, mais pas ça.

Mais pendant les années Trudeau, c'est la première fois dans l'histoire du pays qu'on réussit à réduire la pollution à travers des politiques publiques.

Donc un mélange d'investissements, de tarification carbone, mesures réglementaires.

Historiquement, quand la pollution diminuait au pays, c'est parce que l'économie se plantait, parce qu'il y avait une crise économique, la crise financière en 2008, la COVID.

Mais là, au cours des dernières années, on a réussi à diminuer la pollution.

Es-tu vraiment inquiet de ça ? Est-ce que tu te lèves la nuit penser à ça ? Ma question est sérieuse.

Like, who is this Mark Carney? Do you share that sentiment? Did you think this would be, a year later, your experience?

So I knew Mark before I knew Prime Minister Carney.

Uh, we, we have worked together in, in, in the past.

Um, if you look at our, our, our, our campaign platform during the last election, uh, th- that platform, so commitments that we made to Canadians, um, mentioned climate change 28 times.

It did not mention pipeline once.

So I, I, I think rightfully so, some people, whether they're Liberal caucus members, whether they're Canadians at large, um, are wondering what is happening.

And I think that's where I respectfully disagree with the approach that the, the, that the government is, is taking.

Might the prime minister have a point, that a different approach isn't just about results on the environment but could help with, for example, the national unity crisis we face right now?

Qu'est-ce qui a changé en six mois ?

Ben, en fait, quand j'ai, quand j'ai quitté le cabinet, ma réflexion était déjà amorcée sur le, mon avenir politique.

Je n'avais pas pris de décision, mais, mais j'y pensais certainement et je m'étais donné quelques objectifs.

Donc, il y avait un certain nombre de choses que je voulais essayer d'influencer positivement.

Euh, le premier ministre Carney, un peu plus tôt cette année, a annoncé une nouvelle stratégie pour la nature des investissements quand même très très très importants.

Puis moi, j'avais travaillé là-dessus quand j'étais ministre de la Nature.

Alors ça, j'étais, j'étais content.

Avez-vous l'impression que monsieur Carney pourrait avoir une mauvaise surprise ? C'est-à-dire que votre départ fasse que l'élection partielle tourne autour des questions environnementales ?

Like, who is this Mark Carney? Do you share that sentiment? Did you think this would be, a year later, w- w- your experience?

So I knew Mark before I knew Prime Minister Carney.

Uh, we, we have worked together in, in, in the past.

Um, if you look at our, our, our, our campaign platform during the last election, uh, th- that platform, so commitments that we made to Canadians, um, mentioned climate change 28 times.

It did not mention pipeline once.

So I, I, I think rightfully so, some people, whether they're Liberal caucus members, whether they're Canadians a- at large, um, are wondering what is happening.

And I think that's where I respectfully disagree with the approach that the, the, that the government is, is taking.

Might the prime minister have a point, that a different approach isn't just about results on the environment, but could help with, for example, the national unity crisis we face right now?

How do those words sit with you on a day like today when it is clear you're not going to be working together? D- what kind of meaning, if any, do they hold for you?

Oh, no, I think, um, I mean, these are very meaningful words.

I mean, I knew Mark before I knew Prime Minister Carney.

Uh, we, we have worked together.

I think my, my decision to move on is motivated by a number of, of different factors.

But yeah, in terms of how we should tackle the fight against climate change, I have a, a view, uh, that is different from, from, from the government, but I continue to support the Prime Minister.

Um, I'm staying for the remaining few weeks.

What was ultimately the final straw for you?

So was that, that it, that the signals from the MOU, was that your ability to have the influence you wanted to have, it was a pretty final answer that maybe it wouldn't be there?

I think it, it's, um, a respectful disagreement with, with, with the Prime Minister and, and, and, and the government on how to approach climate change.

I've heard some people say that we had a, a plan on paper before.

I respectfully disagree with that.

Um, an independent analysis by the, the, the Climate Institute, the Canadian Climate Institute in, uh, at the end of 2024, said that we were tracking to be at min- minus 36% in 2030, where we were supposed to be at minus 40.

So we weren't quite there, but we were getting very close.

And, and our plan was a combination of investment, of fiscal measures, like carbon pricing, and of regulations.

Mm-hmm

Mark Carney ne fait que suivre l'opinion publique.

C'est vrai que présentement, avec tout ce qui se passe dans le monde au sud de la frontière, les gens sont plus préoccupés par l'économie que par l'environnement.

Mais tu en parlais tout à l'heure, ça fait longtemps que toi et moi on en parle de ça, l'environnement.

Il y a 10 ans, il y a 15 ans, on aurait les mêmes conditions géopolitiques, puis un président américain qui dérape un peu.

que l'environnement aurait été à 10%, à 15%, là, ça reste à 40%.

Donc, ce n'est pas que ce n'est plus une priorité, mais c'est qu'il y a d'autres éléments, notamment l'économie qui prend plus de place.

Mais moi, je pense qu'il ne faudrait pas grand-chose pour que ça redevienne l'une des priorités des Canadiens et des Canadiennes.

Es-tu déçu de la politique quand on dit une chose puis on en fait une autre?

Mark Carney ne fait que suivre le, l'opinion publique ?

?C'est vrai que présentement, avec tout ce qui se passe dans le monde au sud de la frontière, les gens sont plus préoccupés par l'économie que par l'environnement.

Mais tu en parlais tout à l'heure.

Ça fait longtemps que toi et moi, on en parle de ça, l'environnement.

Il y a dix ans, il y a quinze ans, on aurait les mêmes conditions géopolitiques, puis un président américain qui dérape un peu, que l'environnement aurait été à dix pour cent, à quinze pour cent.

Là, ça reste à quarante pour cent.

Donc, ce n'est pas que ce n'est plus une priorité, mais c'est qu'il y a d'autres éléments, notamment l'économie qui prend plus de place.

C'est-- Es-tu déçu de la politique quand on dit une chose puis on en fait une autre ?

I, I, I mean d- do you have a good sense of what the limits and constraints are on this? 'Cause it isn't clear in what we've seen.

No, I, I, I don't.

I don't think we, we, we do at this point.

It is, again, very, very broad.

I mean, i- if you, like, you're talking about interprovincial projects, you're talking about energy projects, you're talking about industrial zones, I mean, that sounds to me like it could cover a, a large part of our, uh, of our country where we could, um, d- define those zones as economic zones and exempt project for, for, for impact assessment.

Uh, I mean, my fear, David, I think that I agree with the government that w- we want many of these projects.

I may disagree with some of them, but there are many in, uh, of those projects that I and many others agree with.

... from the path, uh, we've seen for the past 10 years.

Where does restoration fit into this strategy?

I, I think you're right.

We, we didn't talk enough about it in, in, in the strategy, but I think it is i- embedded into many elements of the, of the strategy.

I was giving the example of, uh, of urban parks earlier, where the work we will be doing to, to develop urban park will largely be work where we're restoring ecosystem that have been degraded.

And, a- and many of the programs, whether they're at Parks Canada or whether they're at, uh, Environment and Climate Change Canada, are programs where, uh, working with organization like yours and many others in the country, we will, we will help, um, acquire lands and, and protect them and, and restore them certainly closer than we would do for a national park.

Like, what we do with a national park, usually we, we look at iconic ecosystems or emblematic ecosystems in Canada, mostly pristine, and we say, "Okay, we wanna, we wanna protect this." And that's super important.

We need to do that.

[laughs]

Has your perspective shifted since November? Do you see a different window of opportunity that you didn't see before?

Uh, I mean, as a, as a cabinet member, I would not have been able to write the op-ed that I've, that I've written and, um, do the type of interviews [chuckles] I'm, I'm doing.

When you're in cabinet, there's this thing called cabinet solidarity, and you have to agree with all cabinet decisions, uh, public-- You have to agree with them publicly, uh, even if privately you may, you may disagree with them.

Um, as a member of Parliament, uh, even as part of the, the Liberal Party, I certainly have more leeway in terms of what I can express publicly, and, and I'm trying to use, uh, this freedom, uh, i-in, in a more constructive way possible.

The letter that I published is basically reminding the federal government of, of, of commitments we've made either prior to this, the, the signing of the, the memorandum of understanding with Alberta or elements that are in that, uh, MOU w-w-with Alberta, with Alberta.

For example, uh, the fact that we, we say we want to have a, a more, uh, effective price on, on pollution for industries.

I mean, the industrial carbon price already supports something like fifty-seven billion dollars worth of investment in decarbonization in industries in, in Canada.

Have you received any response?

I- is there a tent too big?

I mean, I, like others in, in caucus and, uh, a- and members of the party, were surprised by the, the, the latest floor-crosser.

She was a vehement opponent of mine when I was environment minister on climate change.

But the party won't veer to the right because of one person coming with different ideas that we've, that, that, that, than we've had on, on, on the issues like climate or women's right to choose or supporting the LGBTQ community.

No more so that the party veer to the left when we welcome someone from the NDP.

It, it, the party's larger than one person, and I think MP Gladue's an intelligent woman.

She must understand what she's getting into.

Is there a too right for you?