Stephen Kinzer

And he gives example after example after example.

So is Stephen Kinzer, another pretty middle-of-the-road establishment kind of historian and political analyst, writes for the Boston Globe.

You know, et cetera.

One of the books that I used of his was called Overthrow.

Foundation.

Stephen Kinzer wrote the definitive biography of Sidney Gottlieb, Poisoner in Chief, drawing on a trove of declassified documents.

Kinzer was direct.

Gottlieb set up bogus foundations that contacted university clinics and hospitals.

Toward the end of the talk, Pat talks about red flags for spotting people who are only pretending to have secret knowledge and elite credentials.

If you like this episode, you might also enjoy a previous episode where I talked to historian Stephen Kinzer about the government mind control program, MKUltra.

We talk about what's fact versus fiction and the many misunderstandings and myths about that program.

One cool thing I learned from talking to Pat was that my podcast had been recommended by an Army Psyop trainer to people taking that course.

Now, what I would love to do is go arrest all of the, um, CEOs of all these countries, confiscate all of their wealth for organizing coups with the CIA, and then use that money to rehabilitate those countries and put all those people back where they belong.

So I found Stephen Kinzer's Overthrow to be a good overview.

It's an ex-

I found...

and

we'll get into what happened in that hearing, but one of the witnesses was a journalist named Stephen Kinzer, who wrote the book on Sidney Gottlieb, the guy in charge of the whole program.

Kinzer went looking through all of MKUltra history for a single instance where somebody in an MKUltra office referred to those Nuremberg

principles.

I was never able to find any indication that those Nuremberg principles ever were even consulted, much less obeyed.

The House Oversight Committee's Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets, chaired by Representative Ana Paulina Luna of Florida.

Three witnesses.

Stephen Kinzer of Brown University, who wrote the Gottlieb biography, Poisoner in Chief.

There's a lot of occultists and occult kind of principles in this story.

In the hearings on MKUltra a couple weeks ago, I think, Kinzer wrote the book, The Poisoner-in-Chief, and literally Gottlieb thought of himself as an alchemist.

He thought of himself as kind of doing alchemical type stuff because they were using poisons and things like that.

And so it goes back to all the way back, and even Shufflin traces this.

I would wonder if you would elaborate that.

And also, as of June, Representative Luna of Florida is having hearings on MKUltra in Congress.

And one of the witnesses was Stephen Kinzer, who is the author of the book on Sidney Gottlieb, Poisoner and Chief, who gave testimony there.

And it's also interesting that what's coming out is Richard Helms ordered Sidney Gottlieb to destroy all the files, which he did on...