you find the courage, Simon? Like, how do you find the courage when you feel like the bedrock of your relationship is shifting?

I think you have to ask that question and I did in my relationship is how much do I want this? You know, you can take the easy route out, which is, you know, we talked about separation and divorce, which is not, I say that's easy.

It's not easy, but it's the alternative route or you can decide that you want to do the work.

And I think that it is an either or, because the alternative is it just degrades and you become strangers.

That's the third part.

You can do the work, you can become strangers, or you can become distant and you can separate and divorce.

And I think I don't think it's that surprising that there is no yet direct causation.

So as you started to... sit and listen and believe and you started to work through this, how did it start to feel better for both of you?

But go ahead if you want to share a little bit.

Yeah.

So like I said, after about four years, she got a good OB and who said, yeah, this is perimenopause.

Let's Let's talk about what are some pathways for you to follow that you could use to manage the symptoms that you're experiencing.

But at that time, I was still, OK, great.

Now I'm hearing this word paramenopause.

So let's talk about that.

But in terms of what you have created in the program and how you work with men now, obviously, I say obviously, but I would imagine your own experience was very pivotal in how you decided to roll this out and to present this to the men folk.

It can mean a lot of things.

So I think the first thing is for men is not personalizing and internalizing.

That's something that men tend to do.

And if you think about the way society looks at men and women, Men are centered, and women orbit men.

That's the way the Western world is set up.

That's the way men are enculturated.

That's the way women are enculturated.

I've done

Because that's the easiest thing to tell someone.

Yeah, absolutely.

But our relationship was changing dramatically.

The biggest change, of course, was intimacy, both physical and emotional.

And so I actually...

I think it's common amongst men, I personalize.

Because if it's not about her and the relationship is changing and her meds are normal and the doctors say there's nothing wrong with her, it must be me that's changing the relationship.

Right.