What surprised you most about the institution, do you think, when you joined? Because it wasn't your natural habitat, was it?

No, I was what I'd call an accidental courtier.

I actually had never met a member of the royal family until I was interviewed by the Queen and Prince Philip at Windsor Castle in the final interview.

And I had been seconded by the company I was working for, Centrica, where I'd been director of corporate affairs, and the palace, in 1998 this was, were looking for someone to come in from outside to help them shape the communication strategy going forward after, frankly, what was a very difficult and challenging time, the year after the death of Princess of Wales.

So I was recruited at that time for two years, and the whole experience was extraordinary.

Um, I guess the three things that struck me just going into the palace for the first time and sort of experience it, first of all, you don't really appreciate until you go into a role like that, the whole constitutional framework.

I, I call it the image of the red boxes.

What are they looking for next? What will the King need, do you think? If you were putting that job spec together, Simon, what would you have from the ideal candidate on there?

But is the implication that Keir Starmer as the Prime Minister doesn't have the power to overhaul the Treasury?

Well, he cites a comment from his recent speech to underline the point.

I think he-- it sounds to me as though he's deeply frustrated with the Prime Minister saying one thing and doing another, and he's deeply frustrated with the Chancellor for not delivering on the financials.

The other thing I feel about this is one of the golden rules of politics is managing expectations, and it's often the toughest thing to do.

But you never, ever want to get to a situation where it hangs out there.

There's this big story coming, there's this big review coming, there's this d- big investment program coming, and all that you can do is manage the fact that people either say, "Why did that take you so long?" Or, "Why wasn't this in it?" Or, "Why is it such a small number?" So I, I-- It's, it's ha-- It's, as Katie knows, being in Number Ten and managing expectations is almost like a contradiction in terms.

But you've got to try and be ahead so that you're not constantly thinking, how do we kind of tackle the issues about what we got wrong as opposed to what we got right? So they're in a, they're in a hole.

Uh, and I'd like to think that there's been enough brains and, you know, enough scrutiny of this plan to make it watertight and to, to

Simon, what was your reaction when you heard about this?

Uh, hi, Andrea.

Good to talk to you.

Yeah.

It, a- again, similar to what Laoise was saying there, it, it, it's, it's kind of one of those calls you, or one of those, uh, messages you never want to, that you never think you're going to receive.

And, uh, when it does come, uh, it, I mean, panic is obviously the first, [laughs] the first reaction.

But, um, I suppose it was a lack of, uh, really knowing what to do.

What is the protocol, Simon? I mean, as a school principal, if you receive some kind of letter or communication like this, who do you first call?