Is this really a challenge to the West?

So before I answer that question, which is a very interesting question, let's just look at the world and the landscape, the geopolitical landscape of today.

An old era of, let's say, US dominance and Western dominance in general, I think has really come to an end.

So we're in a period of transition, right, from one era which was quite simple in the sense we knew who to turn to when things were not working.

It didn't always work out.

It was a period of wars and conflict, of course, but it was simpler, right? There was one leader and everybody else sort of agreed and worked with or against, but it was clear.

Now we live in a multipolar world, so there are many central... poles in the world, power structures in the world, many different countries that have agency, that have power, want to have more power, want more representation.

so what would you what would you wish for more student exchanges or I don't know more cultural centers with some

So can you like maybe share what you've observed, especially around how the discourses have been mobilized by different actors, but also what are the consequences of the mobilization of certain discourses? Of course, primarily on migrants, but I think generally on democracy and human rights in general.

So, you know, I've been thinking about it as well.

And when I was trying to figure out what had happened and trying to sort of put it in a bigger picture, right, what struck me was how Europe's past and its future have collided over Ceuta.

So the past, obviously, Ceuta is a Spanish enclave.

It's part of our European colonial history.

which we have never really accepted, we haven't had that reckoning, we haven't had the acknowledgement and the recognition that this is unfinished business, right? And how it still sort of is there in our policies, our foreign policies, security, trade, it's all based on colonial hierarchies, colonial extraction, and colonial tropes generally, right? And the present, but rather the future, and I think we've got a glimpse of that very chilling future, re-migration, which is now completely mainstream.

It's deportation, no longer deterrence, because deterrence used to be the big thing, you know, stronger borders, more active sort of, you know, sort of sending back of people, but having had the first interviews.

So