Section 28

Yes, Sue Bordley.

Um, total guess, Clause 28?

No.

Any more? No.

And this is back at the start of the millennium, which was a very different world.

Section 28 was still in place when I was at school.

Homophobic bullying wasn't dealt with.

The word gay was used negatively.

and then even when something did get made to air there was so much kickback by the tabloid press

or by the media that section 28 of And

Section 28 as well.

I think Section 28 was just this.

It was just so strange because I only realised that Section 28 existed probably in my early 20s.

Because it was strange that when you were living through it, and this was a fact right law that basically banned anything positive about queer people being mentioned even in schools.

So it sort of became this environment where it wouldn't even get mentioned.

Removing inappropriate material.

Like what? Clause 28.

We have to remove any books or material that might be promoting a homosexual lifestyle.

Bloody hell.

And then, of course, something very close to us, Tamara.

In 1988, four lesbians abseiled into the House of Lords to protest against Section 28.

Brilliant.

And some of those protests worked, some of them didn't.

I mean, factories obviously stayed, segregation ended, women got the vote, but Section 28 was passed by Parliament.

So, you know, some work,

some don't.

And actually, your psychology background, you probably know this better than I do.

But, um, you know, it, it means the world 'cause we've now...

You know, growing up, um, I'm, I'm coming up to 40 years old now, and I grew up in a time where there was legislation called Section 28 in the UK, where you weren't allowed to even acknowledge the existence of LGBTQ+ people in schools.

And so I grew up never belie- And, you know, when I was growing up, gay marriage didn't exist, same-sex marriage didn't exist.

Um, gay people couldn't adopt.

Mostly pictures of his social circle in West London in apparent domestic bliss, the portraits came to have a different meaning since many of the men depicted have since died of AIDS-related illnesses.

Pretended Family Relationships from 1985 to '88 used a phrase from the homophobic Section 28, also known as Clause 28, which sought to prohibit schools and local authorities from, quote, "promoting homosexuality." Like Exiles, this series used text alongside the photographs, and there were three components: a picture of an unnamed couple, an image of a demonstration against the legislation, and a poem by Sunil's then partner Stephen Dodd.

He developed this more conceptual structuring of the photographic images in pieces like 1999's From Here to Eternity.

This was arguably Sunil's most personal project to date since it reflected on his HIV diagnosis, pairing intimate self-portraits with tightly cropped unpeopled images of the locations of queer clubs and saunas.

'88.

Something like-

Around the time of Clause 28 and-

Yeah.

You know, you can't always have constant success.

But I think, sort of finally, the most profound moment of the whole conversation was just Ian McKellen talking about not only his activism around Section 28 and also being a very... an actor who, of course, has done countless a lot for the LGBTQ plus community, but I think him talking about...

The fact that he did not have conversation with his dad about his sexuality, even though he felt that throughout his life, his dad was giving him that opportunity to be more open about his sexuality in an age very different to now.

But also, you know, coming out at 49, coming out in the way that he did on TV against Section 28 in the 1980s.

And I think for me...

Just the bravery, the sheer bravery at that time when the political environment was so toxic to rise your head above the, you know, the one thing that sort of stood out to me was his overall bravery at that moment.

It's so much bigger than just tea and a chat.

They're talking about life and art and history.

Heteronormativity and cisnormativity create structures of domination in daily life.

For queer and trans people, the state has often been the most relentless enforcer of oppression, from sodomy laws to Section 28 in the UK, to bathroom bills in the US, to police raids on bars and meeting places.

Bureaucracies that claim to protect often do the opposite, regulating bodies, prescribing roles and punishing anyone who refuses to conform.

Although the language of queer anarchism is relatively recent, anarchist movements have long contained queer and trans voices.