Because it sounds like for museums to evolve in the way that yours is, which is bringing people who haven't been there before in... and bringing them joy and memorable moments you almost by necessity have to push yourself and go places as a museum that are potentially uncomfortable and maybe you live in the uncomfortable world so for you you're comfortable in it but like how what advice would you give to other directors and even designers on how to design at these boundaries

guess it's about having a philosophy of leadership that is about constant change and about keeping people comfortable within that constant change and understanding that the world is an anxious place at the moment and um it's about belief you know it's not about hope it's about belief it's about having a belief that these things can be done and they should be done, you know? And it's about doing that rather than hoping they might work out, right? Like you've got to have a belief there somewhere.

And I think, you know, the Penn Project and the long essay by Aaron Cope and I really gets into, like we wrote that as we were basically dying from the project.

Um, you know, both, both of us were got, you know, got really, um, we, both our hair, our hairs turned gray and we lost hair and, you know, it, it was a very stressful period of our lives and New York is known for doing that to people.

Right.

Like, you know, but you can make amazing things.

So if you don't have belief in it, like why would you do this stuff? Right.

And