Hmm.

Um, but then the thing that was always very awkward was I'd never ...

The, even as far back as when I was a child, I always felt like there was more than just what we see and what we do.

There was still that thing of, okay, so there must be something else though.

There must be some other purpose.

Maybe it's this Nietzschean purpose, or maybe it's, you know, some other thing that's going on.

Um, and that invariably drew me to things like mysticism, and that became really, uh, really heavily informed my work.

Um, yes.

Like what does that kind of take the form of?

Yeah, I guess it's just more seeing how they see the game.

Um, I guess they've been taught a certain way up, up in Japan, so, um, us Kiwis, um, obviously, um, we, you know, we're pretty, um ...

I guess we, we, we get a good luxury of coaches, um, in New Zealand.

So I guess just trying to, um, spread, um, their awareness around how to read a game and, um, especially with the backs.

Um, yeah, so it's, I guess it's just been spreading the awareness around how they see the game with attack, defense, kicking game.

Um, and I think that's been, I guess, a, a pretty fun thing for me is that, you know, you get to come up here and actually, um, get these boys to, um, I guess showcase their talents and, and I guess see their, um, their rugby brains, um, think a lot more about the game.

... how that all works.