So I think the more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well.

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, uh, you know, I also, you know, we, we talk, we use the term forum very intentionally.

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

So I think the more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well.

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, uh, you know, I also, you know, we, we talk, we use the term forum very intentionally.

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

Yep.

Um, so they're not as performant as ASICs, but they're better than flash.

They're, you know, better than s...

You know, it's persistent, right? So you don't have to worry about power off with RAM.

Um, and for future small items that are equipped with FPGA like this, it means I'll be able to push out better and better quantum safe algorithms over time.

It doesn't help anybody, you know, in power distribution or any other industry that, that doesn't have these in their field devices, but for the future, like, this is, this is a good future-looking mu- move for continued quantum, uh, safe protection.

Go, no, go right ahead, Scott.

The, the, th- I think there are two really interesting pillars that feed into this whole conversation, and we, we, we beat the telco one to death, right? You know, there's innovation that's happened over decades and a century that has helped propel this, and then there's all the space lift capability that comes from NASA and some of the other competing national space agencies where, you know, again, if we've got one foot on each shoulders of those giants, and now look at the acceleration and the new things that are happening here, like the h- the past matters.

with with john and james and we have um uh emily behind the scenes helping with a lot of things um we have uh now you know photographer that that's that we've worked with a few times um the advisory board also has learned along the way and and helps to guide us and continue to guide us so you know i think the uh more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, uh, you know, I also, you know, we, we talk, we use the term forum very intentionally.

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

with with john and james and we have um uh emily behind the scenes helping with a lot of things um we have uh now you know photographer that that's that we've worked with a few times um the advisory board also has learned along the way and and helps to guide us and continue to guide us so you know i think the uh more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, uh, you know, I also, you know, we, we talk, we use the term forum very intentionally.

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

with with john and james and we have um uh emily behind the scenes helping with a lot of things um we have uh now you know photographer that that's that we've worked with a few times um the advisory board also has learned along the way and and helps to guide us and continue to guide us so you know i think the uh more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, uh, you know, I also, you know, we, we talk, we use the term forum very intentionally.

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

[laughs]

You know, I came to find over time that so much of what is relevant for NetOps and operating networks is now downstream from software tooling.

And so there is real value, utility, and logic in I should be using a system for versioning my configs and the automation scripts that I write for my network.

Boy, software world knows how to do that with Git, GitHub, GitLab, other instantiations of that.

There's probably great utility in a process for double-checking configs and scripting, and having people review things before it gets pushed into production.

And I'll tell you what, that's very counter the XXIE mentality of, "Dude, I know how to do this.

I went and earned my leather bomber jacket," or, "I got my JNCIE plaque," right? "I shouldn't need to have somebody checking my configs." Guess what? If you wanna reduce risk, and you wanna hedge against risk, just like you said earlier here, you wanna have the right processes that reduce errors in scripting and configs in your network as much as you can, and CICD applied to network configurations and scripts makes a whole heck of a lot of sense.

So if people wanna sort of get into that domain generally, where do you recommend they really train and develop their skills? Is it the traditional XXIE? Is it cloud networking certification? Is it just diving in deeper with AI? Where are people gonna really train themselves to get the best skill set?

And so those data centers in space are going to have to be replaced every three or four or five years as well.

Scott? So maybe I'll take the softer intro and say to my good colleague from Ohio, Mr.

Foskett, and say, you know, there are issues and you're right to acknowledge them, right? And Ray has touched on them in certain ways here, right? I think about it in terms of power, cooling, and radiation, right? Launch cost is obviously an issue.

But power, you know, okay, can I get abundant solar? I have access to solar, but I still have to do special things to have really big arrays and keep them pointed in the right direction at the sun.

So, you know, there are physics and challenges there.

For all the power that's consumed, generated and consumed, heat needs to be removed.

And I don't have convective or conductive cooling in space.

of politics or caps because of I think largely because of

So it's been great

... here's something that's really interesting with the framework in particular.

Um, number one, you know, Chris and I did not have a backroom conversation one day to say, "We need to motivate the community to develop a framework." Um, if we, if we had that conversation, I don't remember it, Chris, so, you know, my apologies if I'm forgetting that.

Yeah.

Um, so this truly emerged from, you know, enough people, and it probably was, like, three dozen people that were poking at it, and it distilled down to half a dozen that really drove the effort forward.

Um, so that has been nothing but amazing.

Um, and that's an outgrowth of a couple of guys making sure there are enough chairs around the oasis.

You know? So how do you, you know, you two go about that?

So I think the more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well.

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, you know, I also...

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

So I think the more people helping has definitely been a big part of it as well.

So I'm trying to finish a blog post that will hopefully be published before this episode publishes that talks about this just from my perspective.

And I would say AutoCon 5 was really good.

the best one for me since autocon zero, um, because of learning as we go, um, learning to let go and just kind of trust, you know, that things are going to happen.

Um, that, you know, busy, busy network at the beginning of a workshop does not mean an outage, especially when people are pulling down four gig, you know, zip files of all the stuff they should have done when they were at home.

Right.

Um, But, you know, I also...

So I had put some billers out to folks that i value in the community and this was actually and i talked to them separately and all three of them basically asked the same variation of this question is how do you police that and how do you make sure that the vendors don't completely you know take over because as practitioners they want value in the technology yeah you know so how do you you know you two go about that

And some of that you can push back on the application teams, but some of it is ultimately your responsibility.

I do think it's interesting that, you know, when I think about telemetry in the cloud, it was all kind of born with the assumption of infinite capacity.

I know infinite's a strong word, but sure, I can instrument that.

You know, I can put a, you know, printf in this line in the code and, you know, so that I finish this routine, right? Whereas in networking, there's still a lot of legacy stuff if I ask the router to do too much from a reporting and telemetry perspective, it's going to fall over.

Um, and we've, we've heard, we have good friends of ours.

Russ White tells a story, um, about some little tack moves that he had to, uh, force a reboot of a router to load on the new code with some, you know, certain SNMP commands.

So, um, Now, that's largely not true today with most industrial-strength routers that you see in carrier service provider and even smaller environments.

So it's nice that some standards do get through, but I think they have to be almost sneaky about it.

Did I, did I summarize that okay?

You did.

I, I would just like to layer on, okay, so on top of that, and this is how the Avengers Assemble, Packet Pushers Assemble, um, motion came together, that gripe session, I mean, excellent, um, documentation of how hard it is to actually get telemetry and state from devices got me thinking about, mm, I wonder has it been any better or worse in the other domains, right? So cloud system administration, security can definitely be part of this discussion, but we already have our plate full for today, so that's a, that'll be an add on.

And that's what made me think of Kyler, Ned, and you, and Yvonne to say, "Let's, you know, maybe the grass isn't greener.

Maybe it's just as bad everywhere." And my baby cloud experience is with horrible host names that have no semantic content, um, that are seem to be randomly assigned, where at least in my safe little IP networking world, I get to name the hosts, and they can actually, um, follow a scheme.

So, uh, I know this is a pets versus cattle conversation, but, uh, so that's, that's where I wanted to go with this.

Is it better? Is it worse? And then we d- we'll follow up on the AI.

[laughs]

Yeah.

So let me, can I be somewhat contrarian here? Sorry, I retract my request for permission.

I'm going to be a little bit contrarian here.

We're right in the middle of this, right? And not to...

not to discount concerns.

Like there are real societal, linguistic, social, and other impacts here, no question.

And raising them here is good because then we know how to kind of guard against them and correct for them.

Any thoughts? I mean, my experience with it has been universally disappointing.

But as more and more workloads have been repatriated to the on-premises data center, and more importantly, once AI became something that was a very big on-premises workload generation system, now we're back to having those multi-tenancy conversations, only now they're more important because this isn't just, "Oh, my data might leak across these two things, and I might let some PII go." Now it's, "Hey, you're only allowed to use 15% of this GPU farm, and by goodness, you're not gonna get 16% unless you pay for it." So how did we find ourselves back here again?

Yeah, I'll throw out things that we're seeing in some of the Neo Cloud engagement that we're, we're engaged in at Solutional.

Basically, the frontier model companies not having enough capacity is creating this Neo Cloud market, and it is incredible and fascinating.

Um, but one size does not fit all, and some Neo Clouds want, you know, application level orchestration and multi-tenancy.

Others need it strictly at the hardware level, and s- the slider bar moves back and forth in between.

I definitely wanna touch on some of those topics today.

[laughs]

So we're all, I mean, I, I'll, I turn up the AC in my room, but the noise would be, um, prohibitive.

I was gonna ask you, so I mean, it- it's kind of, uh, unfair to ask you to pick your favorite baby or, you know, which one here, but, like, what was, uh, your favorite thing that you saw out of the last one, like favorite talk or favorite workshop that you thought was just, like, you know, clicked for you and thought was inspiring?

Yeah.

Well, per, per your, uh, your introductory comment there, of course I have no official favorites, but at this moment in time, you know, here, here are ones that really hit me.

Um, and I'm not gonna remember all the details, but, uh, let me, let me throw out, um, the ...

We wrapped up the last day with a set of lightning talks, you know, 10 minutes, bam, bam, bam, and I should have looked up the gentleman's name before we actually hit record here, but there's one gentleman, I think from Spain, who actually was talking about firewall, um, automation and just delivered a rapid fire, like, full of content, appropriate level of humor, rapid fire in 10 minutes, and, like, we couldn't have closed out the event, you know, with a better, you know, take us home, um, ev- event on that front.

Um, so that was really enjoyable, and I would love to talk about this more if we go there, but I want more auto- automation of security content in here.

Like, I, I think we treat things as silos.

Um, have any of the people who've done their talks, you know, kind of touched on how they went from where they, you know, from step one to, to step three in the middle there? Is it just kind of like, "Oh, we just kind of refined it and there it is," you know?