you

know, therapy again, which is one, there might be a crisis, um, and that'll get people to wake up.

Right.

Um, it may just die out on its own sort of like, uh, like the wars of religion back 500 years ago, where we just run out of gas, so to speak, and realize that this is pointless.

Or what I think is more likely is there's just going to be an ebb and flow, and it'll be like the couple that comes in and says, well, we're doing much better.

And I ask, well, what have you been doing to help do that? And they don't have an answer.

And I just realize, well, this is not sustainable.

Can you expand on that? What does that mean, embracing it to where you can reduce identity conflicts?

Or is there peace available?

Yeah, no, that's a really challenging issue.

And we can think about it in any number of different ways, right? The trust is, you know, depending on who we're talking about, right? The trust is destroyed.

The commitment to sort of dialogue is destroyed in many ways.

cases particularly around Islamist groups right and frankly they're closed off in many ways to even having discussions so you know how do you have a discussion with someone or open up a dialogue with someone who's pretty closed off and You know, look, this is like one piece of the puzzle, but it's, you know, the construct I tend to use is something along the lines of think about it like it's a cult.

And I'm not saying it is or isn't a cult.

I'm just saying think about it that way, which is how do you talk to people like that? and how do you dialogue with people like that you have to first listen because anything you push on is going to be considered at some deep level as a threat right so that that's you know that's one piece of that comes to mind as i as i hear you the the how do we repair how do we begin dialogue it usually starts with small steps it starts with you know If somebody makes a bid toward you, that you're open to it and that you respond in kind, that you watch what you're saying so that it's not provoking.

Yeah, I appreciate

Or is there peace available?

Yeah, no, that's a really challenging issue.

And we can think about it in any number of different ways, right? The trust is, you know, depending on who we're talking about, right? The trust is destroyed.

The commitment to sort of dialogue is destroyed in many ways.

cases, particularly around Islamist groups, right? And frankly, they're closed off in many ways to even having discussions.

So, you know, how do you have a discussion with someone or open up a dialogue with someone who's pretty closed off and You know, look, this is like one piece of the puzzle, but it's, you know, the construct I tend to use is something along the lines of think about it like it's a cult.

And I'm not saying it is or isn't a cult.

that.

How does this exceptionalist mindset backfire in the world stage?

Sure.

It's a little bit, it's adjusted now, I think, with sort of the whole Trump and the MAGA movement, but know post 9 11 there is a period where we're all in shock i think i know i was and like what's going on what happened here i'm sure you were too reporting on it must have been really like front and center and then it's you know a great deal of grief or sadness and a lot of compassion from the world and we then fairly quickly president bush we shipped it into this like okay security protective mode.

And then you start to see language like, you know, with us or against us, the march of freedom, dead or alive.

And it's we start to get the rhetoric and the images that are sort of central to a part of our American identity.

And it's it stops being to some degree problem solving.

Like, okay, what's really going on here and what do we got to do? And the rhetoric turns to these places of our identity.

I mean, how does this all clash with the modern era?

I've spoken to them.

I mean, I guess I, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of it.

The, the other part is our government has historically, uh, s- been supportive of autocratic rulers, right, out of our own interest, and a lot of those societies have struggled, um, and the people there feel oppressed, right? They, a lot of them have turned to Islam as a solution, and pretty intense forms of Islam.

Mm-hmm.

On the other hand, if you wanna try to get to the root cause, the engine of what goes on so you can avoid another 9/11, you gotta start to understand what's going on beneath the surface, right? And the we're good, they're bad is, is perfectly fine and reasonable until you start to try to understand the, the, you know, the, the mechanics of the, what's going on.

Moreover, when you start to talk about it that way, it's just gonna create more of the same.

It pr- it participates in the dynamic.

I mean, your wanting them dead simply inflames them more and wants them to want you dead.