Someone who approaches wine through the lens of history and culture as much, uh, as through the glass, would you say that history still influences the way wines are made, crafted, and understood today?

I, I love this question because there was a period at the end of the, uh, 20th century, so let's say 1970 to 2000, when Spain gradually entered Europe, and it became, uh, quick- quickly, quite rapidly industrialized.

And we entered a period, well, therefore, it would've been 1980s, 19- 1990s, when Spain f- became a very, uh, how can I say? In its wine, a very industrial nation.

And we've now, 40 years, or 40, 50 years, 60 years later, are returning to how people used to make wine.

So there is a big movement internationally to celebrate the wines of Georgia and how they make wines in kvevri, in buried amphoras.

And I keep shouting, "Spain has amphoras." Spain used...

Maybe they didn't bury them.

How is Jumilla perceived today on the global arena among buyers, sommeliers, wine professionals generally?

Mm-hmm.

So here we are, vino de pago means a wine from a single vin- vineyard or single estate.

Great.

So it's, if you happen to have an, a lovely piece of land, you probably got quite a bit of cash.

You've got a lovely house there.

And the nicest thing to do is to have a vineyard, and you recognize that your wine is not inside any of the well-known denominations.

It happens to be in a wonderful, beautiful mountain place.

You know, how long did it take you [laughs] to get the material and complete this second book on... 'Cause it, uh, it covers quite a few wine regions, doesn't it?

And as you say, push it all in the same direction.

There have been some very successful groups.

I mean, there was, for instance, a group of about six or seven in Rioja about 10 years ago who are still going called Rioja Enroll.

And individually, they have now risen in different ways to the top.

And there's a group that's just launching itself called VIA.

And then, but the fascinating thing was today, I've done a tasting of a very early marketing group called the Vinos de Pago.

And they were individual wine estates founded any time from 2002, 2003, and then going forward to the present day.

Do you think it's something that maybe Spain... could embrace, should look at more closely.

Oh, they are the first.

And they were, um, they have a 3,000 years of a history as a wine region, and they were the first to say, "We are going to be 100% organic," and they had a whole number of quite tight rules, and it was very well put together, and they have some exceptional producers there.

But the one thing they haven't been great at, and we can look back on it in, in retrospect, and say is in marketing.

And, you know, if you're gonna have a glossy prestige, gold-wrapped, uh, bottle and all of that, uh, of, uh, Champagne style, then it needs to be well-marketed.

So Classic Penedès was a sort of hidden secret.

Then, um, Conca del Riu Anoia was one producer who I think, um, and there are producers like this, who have such prestige and such quality and such, um, personal commitment to their place, that it's very straightforward for them to step apart.

Uh, so that, that's another one.

Yeah.