this.

I was working on a book.

My tenure book was set.

I was in the Syracuse University English Department.

And at that point, I was the chair of the English and Textual Studies Program, which was the first English program that was fully critical theory infused.

So I didn't found it.

I didn't, I wasn't the first director, but that was my baby.

What exactly was being wrecked?

It's

God's word.

Right.

And it's not like Ken Smith was going to be like, well, let's have a debate about gay rights or, oh, let's talk about abortion or let's talk.

He said, well, but your question is, why do Christians believe what they believe? So I care about answering your question.

And the answer to the question is going to come down to the logos.

Jesus, the word made flesh.

What do you do with that? Yeah.

You're shaking your head, Rosaria.

Well, I'm glad you pitched it like that, too, because I do not believe that the command to Christian unity is a disincentive of discernment.

And, and, and I, but I, yes, that's so let's, let's start there and then we can talk about second Peter.

We can talk about, and I think that we were talking about this before we got on.

We had such an exciting conversation before we got on that I might not remember what we said then and what we said now.

But I'm thinking about 2 Peter 3, 5 through 6.

And this is about scoffers.

Rosario, any final thoughts you have?

You're shaking your head, Rosaria.

Well, I'm glad you pitched it like that, too, because I do not believe that the command to Christian unity is a disincentive of discernment.

And, and, and I, but I, yes, that's so let's, let's start there and then we can talk about second Peter.

We can talk about, and I think that we were talking about this before we got on.

We had such an exciting conversation before we got on that I might not remember what we said then and what we said now.

But I'm thinking about 2 Peter 3, 5 through 6.

And this is about scoffers.

Rosario, any final thoughts you have?

[laughs]

... part of it is no doubt personality.

Um, but, but I, l- uh, when I met the Lord, I was 36 years old.

So, um, and I'm 64 now.

So when I met the Lord, I was a 36-year-old tenured professor at Syracuse University, uh, in the English department.

My field is 19th century, uh, studies and, um, my subspecialty was women's studies and queer theory.

So when I was tenured, I was one of the first crop of what we call tenured radicals, the people who were, um, who were, uh, uh, recruited, mentored, groomed, and then launched to, uh, to, to change the way the world w- operated.

But why is it important that we believe that there is a hell? Why does it matter?

[laughs]

Um, but, but it, it, it does...

I'm wondering about the recidivism if, if I, if I could a- I mean, and maybe we haven't studied this long enough to even know.

But, um, as a Christian, my, my dealing with my homosexuality came with the gospel, and with the gospel came not only the hope of, um, not only being cleansed from the guilt of my sin, but the promise that, that there was hope in being delivered from the bondage of my patterns and my lust, um, and my compulsions.

But I, I'm wondering if we're talking exclusively about, and maybe we're not, Joseph.

You can, you can correct me.

But if we're talking about a Freudian paradigm, and we're going to analyze my, my, uh, you know, my same-sex attraction, my homosexuality as being a, a virtue of my, my, my childhood exclusively, where does repentance fit in here? Because here's what I believe.

Now, how do you feel about what Joseph said about the mother and father situation and the child?

Mm.

"For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow," and here's the line, "discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." The Word of God knows your heart better than you know yourself.

And who is this Word of God? It is Logos.

It is Jesus Christ.

It is the Word made flesh.

And then this next line, "No creature is hidden from His sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account." And so here's what I know about the heretics who are wolves.

You know, they stink, and we need to do more than just kick them to the curb.

Um, why are women and children always the first victims of the secular progressive moral revolution and their attempt to remake everything in their own image?

(laughs).

...

but, but it's not, it's not a personhood issue, that from the Scripture's perspective, homosexuality is found in the flesh, it is forbidden in the law of God, and it is overcome in the Savior.

And, um, when I committed my life to Jesus, I wasn't quite sure where all of this was going to go because I was at that point tenured in a number of things, including queer theory, but I was confident of this, that, um, the Lord who could move mountains could change my affections if that's what he wanted to do.

And, um, and so I, um, I became a, uh, somewhat of a public spectacle really on my university campus because I was quite a beloved lesbian professor, and now I had a very public conversion, and I had a church that helped me every step of the way.

But they didn't tell me that I just needed to go live a nice quiet Christian life.

Having been a lesbian activist and now I needed to be a pietistic Christian.

So given your experience on both sides of this battle, what would you say to people as just general pieces of counsel to get started if those are the conflicts they find themselves in?