But are we setting up, do we set ourselves up for a fall, Rob?

I don't think we care enough as a nation about the national team.

We care far more about club football.

And we always have done.

Look, I support a team in club football.

I'm a West Brom fan for my considerable sins.

And I've had absolutely zero luck with that in my lifetime either.

hammer blow that brings football to a culture you've got the three tenors Pavarotti Toto Scalacci never does anything else part than this but he scores that goal and and suddenly football is embraced by by the guardian readers and also it doesn't help doesn't fail doesn't that doesn't any bad thing that England do quite well and then of course this is the first big penalty shootout

But was this the first game where you, you looked at it and thought, "God, I can't believe we've survived that and we've come through," since that change in mentality that started under Southgate?

Yeah.

Wi- without question, this is the sort of game that England will have historically lost.

With all those factors, the pressure building, the referee seeming to be the opposition's 12th man at times.

I...

That possibly a bit unfair, 'cause I think the individual decisions were, were in the end accurate.

But it just had that, had that feeling of everything going against us.

But I want to ask you, what makes a great England tournament match? Is it simply just a good game of football, or is there more to it that needs to be in there for it to, to come together as, as a classic?

He has to have a, a, a say in that as well.

Fabulous.

He, he...

Um, a few world-class saves.

You know, Riley had a couple.

Um, Rice should have scored.

Bellingham, actually, his second chance was more clear-cut than the first.

Yeah

yeah, I know.

It's really, really good.

It's an hour-long documentary about Sven's 2006 side, which was, you know, called The Golden Generation, probably a title that did them no credit at all.

But anyway...

Didn't help them.

I mean, it was a lovely documentary.

What was most distressing about that? And I have heard it before from Ferdinand and Gerrard and Lampard is that they weren't really on the same page, that team.

What was that like for you when you were reliving that moment? And can you remember thinking how difficult it was going to be for us to win a penalty shootout?

Um, [laughs] do you find it difficult to reach people sometimes?

Not necessarily, because I humble myself as well.

I come in as an active participant.

I learn something every time I participate in one of the workshops, even though I'm generally the facilitator.

I'm learning from the other men in the room.

Um, the one training that we do for new and expectant dads is called Training Camp for Dads, and it uses the model of, like, a football training camp where you have a rookie dad, you have this, um, grizzled veteran dad, I might be in that category now, and then you have these kind of dads that maybe have been a dad for five, six, seven years.

And you bring all of those men together, and you realize we all have similar experiences dealing with our children, dealing with the mother of our children, the moth- or the family of the mother of our children.

Is there a path back after you feel like you have been a bad dad?