What are you seeing?

I just think so much of the operational stuff is a mess right now.

I could understand being a little bit off with the details in the passing game.

If some of the timing on motions is off, if some aiming points are off, that's stuff that gets ironed out over the course of the season.

Their inability to run the ball right now, to me, is the biggest issue that they're having.

It bleeds into everything else.

And in Miami, they had these issues.

Okay.

What are you seeing?

I just think so much of the operational stuff is a mess right now.

I could understand being a little bit off with the details in the passing game.

If some of the timing on motions is off, if some aiming points are off, that's stuff that gets ironed out over the course of the season.

Their inability to run the ball right now, to me, is the biggest issue that they're having.

It bleeds into everything else.

And in Miami, they had these issues.

Okay.

Someone.

What I, what I find so interesting about this is that we have these quarterbacks as they've gotten older in their careers that I think the benefit that they've gained from the mental edge is most re- is realized most, uh, pr- in a mo- the most pronounced way when they're playing out the plays.

Matthew Stafford and Jared Goff to me are really good examples, like pocket sp- based quarterbacks, where their understanding of how to hit stuff coming on the backside, how to move defenders, how to utilize and weaponize that acumen later in the down, that can, when it, that's when it's a benefit.

And we've seen guys access that.

Rodgers is trying to use that acumen on the front end of these plays in a world where that's harder than ever It's harder than ever to sit there at the line of scrimmage and pick out what's gonna be an advantageous choice or an advantageous matchup, and that's how he's trying to play.

The only guy I think that has played like this in the modern era, and even this was kind of at the beginning of that modern era, is like Brady in 2020, where he's making-

Okay

... their transition to being more under center is 100, 100 may be strong, 80% of the thought process is in the desire to create more explosive plays.

Someone.

What I, what I find so interesting about this is that we have these quarterbacks as they've gotten older in their careers that I think the benefit that they've gained from the mental edge is most re- is realized most, uh, pr- in a mo- the most pronounced way when they're playing out the plays.

Matthew Stafford and Jared Goff to me are really good examples, like pocket ba- based quarterbacks.

Where their understanding of how to hit stuff coming on the backside, how to move defenders, how to utilize and weaponize that acumen later in the down, that can, when it, that's when it's a benefit.

And we've seen guys access that.

Rodgers is trying to use that acumen on the front end of these plays in a world where that's harder than ever.

It's harder than ever to sit there at the line of scrimmage and pick out what's gonna be an advantageous choice or an advantageous matchup, and that's how he's trying to play.

Okay

Cade Stover was catching meaningful balls.

And even Cade Stover, the role he's playing now is in all that two-back stuff that they do.

So they had no in-line tight end option.

That's why they played so much jumbo last year.

And so them having five playable tight ends, that's great.

But when you remove Jaden Higgins from it, even when you put Keyshawn Booty in, I just don't think the individual pieces fit quite as well as they did.

So I think that gives me a little bit of hesitance.

But if he's anything like he looked in the preseason, it's hard for me not to get excited about this defense.

The tight ends

... increased so much.

And Ed Ingram's a good run blocker, and the tight end part of this is huge.

They had no inline Y blocker last year.

Dalton Schultz is not that guy.

He shouldn't be that guy.

Even Foster Moreau and Marlon Cline, the combination of those two just gives them a skill set they didn't have.

But, like, for you, from an organizational perspective, what would you have to see to justify continuing with this, and do you think Bryce is capable of it?

You're not running a lot of stuff under center the way that you can out of the pistol or out of shotgun with your quarterback.

It's coming from two different directions for me.

I think that when you talk to people in the league about quarterback run game, the first consideration always is the health of the quarterback.

Always.

If you do this, you're risking the quarterback getting hurt.

There was a period, and I think this has happened a few different times.

I think that there was a stretch in 2012, 2013 where this was the case.

to the passing game if Christian McCaffrey gets hurt.

[laughs]

Like, it's, it's, it's a place that I don't really like being.

And I think it starts with the offense, right? And I think they're very excited about year two of this offensive system, having those receivers.

Like, there are so few questions there.

There's been so much interest in who's gonna win the left tackle battle, and I think that's in part because everything else feels so settled and so high-end on that side of the ball.

The question is gonna be what happens with the defense.

That's it.

What was that? What was the vibe in the Rams camp?

[laughs]

Like, it, it's, it's a place that I don't really like being.

And I think it starts with the offense, right? And I think they're very excited about year two of this offensive system, having those receivers.

Like, there are just so few questions there.

There's been so much interest in who's gonna win the left tackle battle, and I think that's in part because everything else feels so settled and so high-end on that side of the ball.

The question is gonna be what happens with the defense.

That's it.

What was that? What was the vibe in the Rams camp?

pending jameer gibbs but there seems to be and i would love your thoughts on this this renaissance of the running back position and people seeing the value in some of these offense changing type of players in kind of some of the guys that i just named what are your thoughts on on where the running back position was maybe five years ago and where it is today

It's a fascinating bit of movement.

We did a whole podcast about it right before the draft, just about the idea of, are we wrong about the way we've talked about running back value over the last five years? And I think part of the answer to that was yes, but part of the answer was the landscape has shifted and I think we need to reevaluate where we are.

There's a bunch of different considerations.

I think, like I said, if it's 22 and a half million for a player that's impacting the game like that, paying a guy like that, that's okay.

You can live with that from a number salary cap perspective.

When it comes to drafting guys as high as Bijan was drafted, Ashton Gentry, obviously Jeremiah Love this year, I think you can look at it in a few different ways.

So when you think about the next evolution of what this offense could be in its run game, where do you think that Tommy Reese and Kevin Stefanski can take it?

All of those great

coaches.

Here's what Robert told us.

I would say three guys jump out.

McDonald is number one with the bullet.

Like Mike is, he is a special, special defensive coach.

I think he is the defensive answer to what McVay has been offensively over the last 10 years or so.

Robert, what excites you about what year two with Ben and Caleb could look like?

Everything.

Yeah.

everything i mean it's and then i think that's what people have missed a little bit in the discussion that we had and especially some of the clips that have gotten pulled out i think people have fixated on the idea that i've said he needs to be better we say seven different times during that show i think he will be better and i think he can be better you know we've seen quarterbacks in the league and this is something else that we talked about that i think is really important Too often, we've talked about quarterback improvement in massive leaps and massive chunks.

And we've looked at guys like Josh Allen who've gotten significantly better and treated those as outlier events because they are.

They don't happen very often.

We don't really see quarterbacks take massive, massive leaps if they're not at least pretty good right away.

But what's interesting is the... reputation that the Bears have built the highlight reel plays that Caleb Williams can make the scramble drill when it works has been very effective but apparently the devil is not in those details listen to what Robert Mays had to say regarding Caleb Williams's completion percentage last season and the contrast between him and the rest of the league

Yeah.

Everything.

And I think that's what people have missed a little bit in the discussion that we had, and especially some of the clips that have gotten pulled out.

I think people have fixated on the idea that I've said he needs to be better.

We say seven different times during that show, I think he will be better.

And I think he can be better.

We've seen quarterbacks in the league, and this is something else that we talked about that I think is really important here.

Listen to what Robert Mays had to say regarding Caleb Williams' completion percentage last season and the contrast between him and the rest of the league.

So walk us through the impetus for you guys saying, "Let's spend some time talking about Caleb specifically."

We do a series of shows every off-season where we, we call them the Lingering Question shows.

And, uh, covering the NFL, there's just no way you can give proper oxygen to things in the back half of the season, for a lot of different reasons.

Sometimes it's just that teams are bad and you stop watching them.

So on that same show, we had a discussion about the Steelers' new defense coordinator, Patrick Graham.

Like, did he do a good job in Vegas last year? Like, how should we feel about this? And so sometimes it's because teams, you just fell off your radar in the back half of the year.

Sometimes it's because you were doing other things when that team's season ended.

[laughs]

you know it's interesting i i've seen some people that heard some people just being slavish to the completion percentage and i and i understand the concerns and ben johnson himself when he came in said well 70 i want my quarterback to shoot for 70 70 and caleb williams at 58.1 percent uh last year so during the regular season so looking at that how do you end up Either mitigating it or dissecting it or believing it? What was that process like for you?

I think it's multifaceted because I think there are a lot of reasons that it was as low as it was that go beyond any specific problems with Caleb Williams on his own.

One, you have 42 throwaways as part of that season last year, which was the most in the league per next gen stats that the NFL gives you.

A lot of that is him escaping sacks, not creating a negative play, but then not creating a positive play on the other side of it.

That has nothing to do with Caleb Williams.

That's just the play devolves after he gets out of something.

There's nothing there.

Robert, what excites you about what year two with Ben and Caleb could look like?

I know

...

he is, I, talking to offensive coaches about him, right? And I think that's, there, even from my, my chair, you're better at seeing this than I am.

I know such a, my, like, little purview of knowledge is so small compared to the guys who are playing against these people every single week.

And so I really like to tap into that when it comes to just general conversation, but especially stuff like this.

It's like, who's better than I think he is? Like, who's hard to go against? And when you talk to offensive coaches about McDonald, like, there was one OC I was talking to a couple weeks ago, he's just like, "It's not even close." Like, "It's not even close." And another guy, uh, another offensive play caller I was talking to used, like, a very, very vulgar phrase about, like, if you are not on your stuff, this is what happens to you.

Like, uh, when des- when describing Mike McDonald, and just how his ability to pick up on every little thing, whether it's formational, situational, like, every bit of information, if you're gonna dangle it out there for him, he's going to use it against you.

Yes.

[laughs] I know, I know.

Like, he, he is...

I, talking to offensive coaches about him, right, and I think that's, there...

Even from my, my chair, you're better at seeing this than I am.

I know such a, my, like, little purview of knowledge is so small compared to the guys who are playing against these people every single week.

And so I really like to tap into that when it comes to just general conversation, but especially stuff like this.

It's like, who's better than I think he is? Like, who's hard to go against? And when you talk to offensive coaches about McDonald, like there was one OC I was talking to a couple weeks ago, he's just like, "It's not even close." Like, it's not even close.

Mm-hmm

I don't think it

was.

I honestly don't think it was.

I think I booked it for...

I booked it all on points.

I didn't notice a change in price.

I think it was all pretty similar.

yeah i mean you don't need to sell me on nico collins that's easy to me it's just a question of getting the offensive infrastructure support that and i guess i sort of wonder like do you think one of the young receivers for the texans sort of makes a leap and sort of commands a larger target share

Like, those are two very clear paths that you could go down, and they probably have strengths and weaknesses, both of them.

It, it's, it's absolutely worth bringing up, and the other team I would throw out when it comes to how this has worked is the Lions hiring Chris Spielman as part of, like, the overall process before they hired Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell.

And so we've seen this work out several different times, and, you know, uh, Jacksonville I think is on its way to working out.

The early returns are very good.

I, I would have a hard time...

I'm cur- I'm sure you've talked to more people about this than I have, but I would love to hear someone articulate what that person's role is supposed to be.

Like, is that person just a go-between and ki- Uh, because my understanding of, like, what Matt Ryan is, is that Matt Ryan is somebody who is deeply familiar with Arthur Blank as a person.

Like, what did you think of them being able to secure this guy, and what do you think him in this system will look like, can look like? How intriguing is it to you?

What's your vibe on them?

I, I'm kinda scared about how much I agree with you.

Because I look at the best case scenario for them right now, and I do think that there is a needle for them to thread and be a really, really good team in 2026.

I love the upside for the offense.

You know, the George Pickens on a multi-year level, who knows if he's gonna be around, but I think chasing what they were offensively last year, the offensive line being a little bit healthier, one year older in that system, I, I think their offensive ceiling is the best offense in the league, if not a top three offense.

I think they absolutely can be that next year with the right health luck.

On defense, I'm a huge, huge fan of Christian Parker, their defensive coordinator.

What was your take on the tender, and what is your feeling on Aaron and where he's at, and where his head's at?

What's your vibe on them?

I, I, I'm kind of scared about how much I agree with you.

Because I look at the best case scenario for them right now, and I do think that there is a needle for them to thread and be a really, really good team in 2026.

I love the upside for the offense.

You know, the George Pickens, on a multi-year level, who knows if he's gonna be around, but I think chasing what they were offensively last year, the offensive line being a little bit healthier, one year older in that system, I, I think their offensive ceiling is the best offense in the league, if not a top three offense.

I think they absolutely can be that next year with the right health luck.

On defense, I'm a huge, huge fan of Christian Parker, their defensive coordinator.

What was your take on the tender, and what is your feeling on Aaron and where he's at, and where his head's at?

What's your vibe on them?

I, I'm kind of scared about how much I agree with you.

Because I look at the best case scenario for them right now, and I do think that there is a needle for them to thread and be a really, really good team in 2026.

I love the upside for the offense.

You know, the George Pickens, on a multi-year level, who knows if he's gonna be around, but I think chasing what they were offensively last year, the offensive line being a little bit healthier, one year older in that system, I, I think their offensive ceiling is the best offense in the league, if not a top three offense.

I think they absolutely can be that next year with the right health luck.

On defense, I'm a huge, huge fan of Christian Parker, their defensive coordinator.

What was your take on the tender, and what is your feeling on Aaron and where he's at, and where his head's at?

Yes.

If you look at Kyler's numbers over the last few years, I think Kyler is a limited quarterback, but he's a very capable quarterback.

Even if you drop Kyler into the Vikings situation and he's the 16th or 17th best quarterback in the league, which I think he's consistently shown the ability to do, if their offensive line stays healthy with the weapons that they have with Kevin O'Connell, I think their offense automatically becomes a top half of the league offense.

To me, the question with the Vikings is gonna come down to, what does their defense look like? That has been an excellent defense over the last few years with Brian Flores.

But when you had JJ McCarthy on the rookie quarterback contract, they were able to spend on all of these kind of luxury defensive pieces.

They didn't all work out, Jonathan Allen, Javon Hargrave, but the roster was more complete on that side of the ball.

And so if Brian Flores can do as much as he's done with a little bit less this year, and that can be a top three defense, and the offense can be just outside of the top 10, similar to Seattle, that's how you get them to be a playoff team in the NFC.

That's right.

Yes.

If you look at Kyler's numbers over the last few years, I think Kyler is a limited quarterback, but he's a very capable quarterback.

Even if you drop Kyler into the Vikings situation and he's the 16th or 17th best quarterback in the league, which I think he's consistently shown the ability to do, if their offensive line stays healthy with the weapons that they have with Kevin O'Connell, I think their offense automatically becomes a top half of the league offense.

To me, the question with the Vikings is gonna come down to, what does their defense look like? That has been an excellent defense over the last few years with Brian Flores.

But when you had JJ McCarthy on the rookie quarterback contract, they were able to spend on all of these kind of luxury defensive pieces.

They didn't all work out, Jonathan Allen, Javon Hargrave, but the roster was more complete on that side of the ball.

And so if Brian Flores can do as much as he's done with a little bit less this year, and that can be a top three defense, and the offense can be just outside of the top 10, similar to Seattle, that's how you get them to be a playoff team in the NFC.

That's right.

Mm

... that they would just cycle through the next one and then that guy would get paid.

Matthew Judon, Pernell McPhee.

They were always being able to tap into these guys.

That area of the roster, they're not two and three deep at some of these positions.

And so they're scrambling more this off-season, interior offensive line, edge rusher, safety, corner if they move on from Marlon Humphrey, than they would be in a typical year.

But I still think there's enough baseline talent, and I do think they'll figure out enough financial wiggle room by restructuring Lamar's deal, where if they do hit on two or three of these things, combined with how exciting I am ab- I, how excited I am about the coaching staff, I do think they can thread that needle.

That's right.