Richard Hackman

Like there are tons of supporters, but they need someone to be that orchestra conductor.

The story I tell in the book you're referencing is when I was at college, our professor, Richard Hackman, who was one of the world's leading researchers on teams, he showed us this video and story of a leaderless orchestra.

They had no conductor.

And it was sort of cool because they had a lot of autonomy, but it was messy.

There's a science behind this now.

Richard Hackman demonstrated this.

Once a team gets bigger than 12, for example, it turns into subgroups.

Exactly,

Um, other good books, of course, um, my mentor wrote a book called Collective Intelligence.

That's Richard Hackman.

Um, it was, which was about bringing the CIA and the FBI together, um, to work together after 9/11.

He worked-

And so she and I were graduate students together.

Oh, wow.

And, uh, we were both students of Richard Hackman's, and, uh, she, who, and it was Richard Hackman who, who, um, basically said, you know, "Study, y- study the conditions, study the situation." She studied safety, and I went on to study some other things.

But I've used her model, or excuse me, her survey for psychological safety in my research since we were graduate students.

Right

... as Hackman, Richard Hackman would put it, a bounded group of individuals who are responsible for a shared goal.

Mm-hmm.

Where bounded is important.