Rhina Espaillat

Yes.

And there's something about, there's this, there's always this tension between sort of the chaos of our thoughts and then a formal constraint that sort of, you both, you know, as Rhina Espaillat talks about, you know, it's a, it's a box to dance inside.

You need some, like, walls to push off against, you know? So there's some way that that provides, like, some kind of leverage too, some kind of structure.

Yeah.