So if people don't do, don't do these trendy things, what should they be doing instead?

Yeah, so this is the thing is I'm seeing in the last year, um, people are really, there's a lot of talk about, like, if you don't like social media, just don't do it.

And then it's like, that's nice and everything, but no one's actually saying, like, there's a lot of gatekeeping going on, and I don't know if it's just because people don't know, and that's totally fair, but I'm noticing, you know, when I was on social media last year, there was a lot of talk about, like, if you don't wanna post every day, just don't do it.

But people are like, "Well, what do I do?" Um, a lot of the conversation was around, you know, just do email marketing instead, and that's all well and good, but then how are you growing your email community off of social media? And there's always a missing link, and I think it's confusing people.

And so I love talking about this on podcasts, because I don't gatekeep, and that's something that I [laughs] am very passionate about, because I, I want people to be able to kind of link tho- those things together and have an easier time at least knowing where to start.

Um, and so some of my favorite ways to, like, l- if we start at the visibility kind of section, what I, what I tend to teach is, you know, what I call the capacity conscious marketing ecosystem which runs from visibility to email community, to trust, relationships, all of that good stuff, warming people up in your community, and then bringing people into your offer.

But if we start from visibility, I think things like, for example, my favorite one, in case you haven't maybe guessed, is podcast guesting.

Like, what does all this look like in practice to build that community?

Like how the heck is this even possible?

Yeah, honestly, I think most people these days are thinking like, oh, that sounds nice, but like that's a one off or like I'm not that's not going to work for me.

That might have worked for you.

And without sounding so like really harsh, I think a lot of the people who say that are also people who struggle to get clients directly from social media.

And so I would.

I would like gently challenge or invite you to kind of look at where's that information coming from? Is that something that you've just kind of absorbed because you spent so much time on social media and you've got all these Instagram gurus kind of saying like, oh yeah, like I make, you know, 10K an hour and like just from Instagram and these leads just keep rolling in.

I would really look at kind of where that perception is coming from and And that's not to like shame anybody or say like, you know, that belief is, you know, your fault.

And can you share just maybe a couple quick things there that you used to get booked on podcast because it worked for this interview that we're doing now?

Help me.

Yeah, that is probably the most common thing.

And there's this there's this kind of saying that comes up again and again that I hear.

And it's like, if not Instagram, then where? That's what people say.

I've heard that exact saying like many multiple times.

And I think it's it dawned on me at the end of last year how big of an issue this kind of.

was in the online space for coaches and practitioners of, oh my gosh, people really don't know that there are other places.

And ultimately, you know, what kinds of results does that get for the for the coaches that you work with?

Yeah

... or, and to like 2022, '23 especially, was, like, this big boom on social media where actually it was...

I mean, it was a lot easier to kind of run a business on social media before then anyway because it was more casual and you stood out because there was way less business owners pre-2020 on Instagram.

It is a completely different landscape now, and the advice that I'm seeing being churned out is just so out of touch and it's, it's just not the case anymore.

Um, it's very challenging to, to grow on social media and to grow a business on social media.

Yes, the algorithms, but also the trust factor of it all, you know? People are very much losing trust in social media and business owners on social media because we've had this kind of merge between...

The way I like to put it is kind of like business owners kind of acting like influencers and not providing s- you know, some of the industry, especially in, in the coaching kind of world, not providing a great service because it, you know, it... people just kind of get unlucky and, you know.

[laughs]

So how did you get started with this?

Yeah.

So rewinding to, like, the origins a little bit, by total accident, in all honesty.

So I actually started out, before I was, uh, in the online world, I had my, my first business, which was a spiritual business that was in person, and then I had that transition into getting into coaching, which led me to explore the online space.

I knew I wanted to be a coach.

I knew I wanted to really work online and, and reach more people.

Um, and I, I really struggled with that initially.

So what are some of your proudest moments or biggest successes you've seen with your clients?

So what brought you to this place? And then we'll dig a bit into what you've just shared as well about the sort of the offline marketing as it were.

Yeah, yeah.

So my story getting into business, I think I always knew I was going to be a business owner.

I started work from a very young age.

I kind of got my first kind of foot in the corporate door at 17, went into marketing and sales then, was very on and off.

I did a lot of various jobs kind of in between.

And in my last corporate job, I was made redundant at the time that I thought I'm going to, kind of take my my on the side business at the time which was a spiritual business I'm going to try and do that full time then ironically the stars aligned and pushed me into redundancy so that was the best thing that ever happened to me I got into business and went into the online world and was instantly kind of overwhelmed I even hired a a very questionable business coach at that time Um, this is when I became a coach myself and I was told social media is all the rage now.

yeah so where where else can people go then for that visibility if if let's just park social media pretend we're not even on social media full stop um how are you coaching and sharing and teaching with your your coaches your students um where do they get their visibility

When it comes to, like, selling specifically, do you ever have clients that are, like, more introverted and, like, hate doing the sales calls? And do you ha- give, like, any kind of advice to them for that?

Yeah.

Yeah, I have, I have a lot of students actually who are either more introverted or they're really conscious of ethics because of maybe their line of work or the way that they've been trained, and they never-- Like, the, the way I teach sales is so permission-based and human-based anyway.

I don't ever encourage using, like, fake scarcity or Urgency that isn't real or kind of ethical.

So we, again, we don't use tactics.

We, we really go on, like, go off of like the core of what sales is, is really about, which is trust and relationships.

But I do, I have people who maybe are a little bit conscious of going on sales calls because of their own kind of opinion or experience of what sales calls have been and- or, you know, they don't wanna o- outright sell their offer.

Yeah

Like you need to figure that shit out on your own.

yeah yeah you're you're right I mean like I I appreciate that my where my work is so based around the person and making it goes really it goes really deep with with even the strategy there's an element it's always going to be an element of like quote-unquote hand-holding in the first kind of couple months however I'm my students are so action-oriented like they'll never they'll they'll never like give up and be like it's too hard I always say like you need to come to me with your problems because if you don't it's going to fester and then it's just going to be shit for everyone but it's even if they're kind of they come to a call like and they're saying okay I'm having a really shit day they'll leave that call feeling great because yeah yeah it's how I coach how I coach and how I teach but it's them because they're not whiners they're like I've got a problem I need to vent I need to get it out and create a plan and then everything moves forward but I don't think I've ever actually had any people that consistently were whiners and I'm very grateful for that but I think in the coaching industry, and I really do think it's down to the way that people are taught to market.

Like me and my marketing head is always like analyzing.

And I think that there's an element of like the coaching industry will teach you to market in such a toxic dependency heavy way of like, you need me to survive.

And then that you're going to attract people who are looking to be saved.

And that's why we get whiners.

And, It's not what we want and it's not what they want or need.

media

Like, that's me, and I'm, now I need the advice you're about to give to, you know, to deal with that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

A- a- and you're so right.

Like, neurodivergence as a whole is so, so, so broad and so wide, but ADHD specific, I think, yeah, the, we have so many good parts, um, about our ADHD and how that works in business.

One of the, the really good sides of it is, like you mentioned, was, like, that bullet train where you can just kind of hyper-focus and get...

We can get a, a really, really, like, an unholy amount of work done in a really weird amount of time.

... "Oh my God, that is me." [laughs]