Because there can be, I think, in this moment in time where budgets are really stretched, and the pressure is on and you know marketers are really up against it to risk mitigate or to think that you're risk mitigating by trying to please everyone even though you logically know that it means that no one will really care about it all that much how do you navigate those conversations

Well, it's interesting because it's being proven out there in the market, like, you know, Pizza Hut or other established brands are actually going out and they're living this challenger mindset.

And I think it's interesting you talk about, just hearing you talk about Pizza Hut, because we've got one, three cabs as a client and they went from being this sort of established brand.

um you know sort of like the the status quo and now they're the challenger brand you know you've got uber out there who are absolutely you know the the biggest thing out there um it's it's it's it's difficult i mean it's a hand-holding thing i think but i think as long as you know keep sort of showing other brands that are doing it keep sort of talking about like you know the challenger mindset doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be you know like a dd or something like that you can actually be um a little bit more thoughtful and insightful We always bring up British Airways with one, three cabs and go look at, you know, you can be this established brand, but look at what you can do with these beautiful human insights.

I think being a, being a, yeah, I think standing, being that thing where you sort of got to, you know, stand for something and not please everybody is difficult.

But I also think.

just um well i know we'll probably talk about ai in a bit but i think the rise of that as well has has definitely made people go i need to stand apart from that you know i need to be i need to be original and i need to be thoughtful and i need to have a point of view um and we're seeing that a lot with with um with a lot of a lot of our clients toyota not so much because they're sort of like the number one and it's more difficult to But they still make great work.

to your ai point in also trying to be thoughtful and original i don't have a single ai question which pleases me greatly um to your point though about a behemoth like toyota i mean the auto category has faced enormous challenges even just in terms of parts and stock and logistics and so if you don't disrupt and you wait to be disrupted that's a surefire way to like let the gap closed yeah so there has to be a kind of disruptor or a stay ahead of the pack mindset at Toyota I imagine too how do you how do you think about that brand keeping its market leadership