Phil, if you were on a TV show as an economist and you were asked to comment on Burnham's economic vision, how would you go about maybe trying to change that framing of the government as a borrower of private sector's money?

Well, of course, if I was just going to tell the truth, say we had Andy Burnham with us on the show and he trusted us, that's a big thing.

And we told him how the system works.

And then he said, yeah, I get it.

Now, he might have to then say, well, how am I going to tell people what I'm doing? Because people are so hardwired to think the national debt is private sector's debt somehow.

They don't understand two sides of a balance sheet.

So there are political difficulties.

So do you have any thoughts on that? Does that maybe constitute advice for policy activists?

Is that worth unpacking a little bit?

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it comes from my naivety, Christian.

So if you can imagine, I'd been obviously teaching for a long time.

I got back into sort of studying economics again.

I did a master's in the 80s, as possibly mentioned, and I got into post-Keynesianism.

And I was really interested in economics when I did the master's.

And it was a part-time at Leeds.

And if you had the chance to speak to that, what would you say?