Wow, that's quite a while.

And so it means that, of course, one has to recall that Islam is very lay-centered, much more so than, say, Christian denominations or even Jewish denominations.

There are relatively few people employed.

For example, mosques, to have a full mosque, you probably do need a resident imam.

But the first stage was generally getting Islamic centers, which was just a place where people could go for fellowship and catch up with fellow Muslims.

And they would do prayers at the standard time when everybody remembers their prayers.

But you can't really have sermons without an imam.

So what makes a building like a mosque? Does it have to be consecrated by someone? Or why can't the Islamic Center become a

Tell, make it, start us off.

Okay.

So the interesting thing is that ac- there's no clear number of a total number of mosques in New Zealand, um, partly because there are several rival Islamic groups.

Um, uh, the main ones, of course, are the normal, um, Sunni mosques, and there's a long list of them that's available.

But, um, there's a, there's a number of other from the smaller Muslim groups, and in particular, um, Ahmediyya, which is the group which is n- not recognized as orthodox at all, um, by the, um, other Muslims, claims to have the largest mosque in the country, um, over in Manurewa.

Uh, so there's a whole variety of these.

What intrigues me is where they're found.

Yeah.

Right on.

and we won't stick to the Pope's opinions on the subject.

In fact, I want to range very freely and ask, first of all, could it be that AI is in the end the end of all religion? Because in a way, religion exists on what can't be known and what can't be predicted.

But in theory, with AI, everything now becomes predictable.

Everything can be known.

So perhaps there is no scope for religion at all now.

screw pillows.

about what we like about religion.

Mm.

Um, and e- ended up, he got a position in, in New York University, was very highly regarded, but felt he had to get back to the land.

And so, um, he's just died at 92 on 31st of August, so not, just, uh, before the weekend.

Um, and, uh, his, he seems to beco- have become the epitome of the back to the land, go primitive kind of approach to life.

So what he's called for is kind of radical agrarianism, where the farmer, w- without overdoing machinery and without abusing the soil, works in the rhythms of the land-

Mm.

And at the very time when it feels as though the world is in disorder, and that bits are falling off as we, uh, you know, we damage the Earth too much, there's a kind of search and fresh appreciation for the, the Earth as it was, and perhaps will never be again.

I don't know.

So you tell us the story and we'll listen.

So Wendell Berry, what a name.

It's hard to believe it is a person's name.

But Wendell Berry was a...

Well, he grew up in a farming community in Kentucky and ended up...

He got a position in New York University, was very highly regarded, but felt he had to get back to the land.

And so he's just died at 92 on 31st of August, just before the weekend.

It reminds me of kind of, you know, the Consider the Lily type of

Methodist is the official, Harry and I were reading up

about it.

rather acrimoniously.

So the state church, in effect, is the free Methodist church.

And this is the church to which the king belongs.

And so it's a Christian nation.

And I got some great photographs of very interesting signs about their idea that Christianity with democracy blends theocracy with democracy to produce monarchy.

How was the food?

Is it quite common in sort of small countries or island nations or strongly religious places to be kind of affiliated with one? I suppose like lots of places are staunchly Catholic, but is it common to have such kind of devotion to a particular denomination within Christianity?

It's a product of a very historical circumstance.

What happened was a trip in Tonga, England, was created in liaison with the English Methodist missions back in 1826.

So that's exactly 200 years ago.

It was made in conjunction with the...

I've got no clue.

I'm trying to ignore my voice.

So what happened was that when the Methodist missionaries arrived in 1926, and some of them came from Canada, what they did was they stood for a united kingdom, and they recognised a potential leader, and he became Foucault I.

What are we talking about today?

Well, you have a chance from the 11th of September to the 30th of September to hear a person introducing you to the Jain religion.

Okay.

And Jain religion is probably completely unknown in New Zealand, although it does have a small worship shrine out in New Lynn.

Wow.

uh in a site that i think has been used by seeks previously or maybe is right alongside the seeks or might even be shared with the seeks for all i know um but uh Jane has one very remarkable distinction.

It's monks do not have clothes.

By the way, people listening at home, J-A-I-N, if you'd like to be Googling along at home.

Yeah.

It really wasn't anything new.

Right back in 2000 and...

There were negotiations by the Clark government to create some kind of document whereby the various religions of New Zealand would recognize each other and aim to work in harmony together.

And this was a sort of partial substitute for the lack of including religion in the Statements of Human Rights back in 1993.

So what it was attempting to get was consensus from the different religious groups that we all accepted that New Zealand was an open religious country and that we would respect each other.

And the negotiations were held up in Waitangi.

It's easy to feel smug about things like America or Australia's more overt racism and that sort of stuff, but we should never be smug and we should never rest on our laurels in that sense, should we?

You know, having to combine Slough and Swindon.

That's right, yes [laughs].

And, and, and so this kind of notion that what you need is a, a grand central symbol.

In that case, people who say they want a grand central symbol behind it are this modest, at least from the outside, modest appearance.

Um, I suppose, though, that the outside thing about it is that they're trying to set up different signals, um, that aren't too ostentatious.

Maybe going too far along that line would have people off.

Mm

... where, you know, they, they struggle to fit everybody into St. Patrick's, the cathedral here, every day.

So that's kind of, I wonder if it's like, you know, in America, like when there's been, Black Lives Matter and this sort of stuff I think the first time I have any remembering any kind of a stand or anything like that, anything kind of of any meaning kind of stood for on the field was probably Black Lives Matter and of course there's been probably throughout history people making a stand of all kinds but that's the first time I remember it and I wonder if since that time kind of people have taken the cue to say okay I'm going to stand up for what I believe on the field

Yes, I think there's something like that that is important.

Well, actually, I'd go back to the Black Power salute in the 1984 or 1980 was at the Los Angeles Olympic Games.

Right.

Because that Black Power salute suddenly made players aware that they have significant agency and prominence that they can write their own signature, if you like, apart from their nation, which, of course, is how the nations would like to see it.

It's the nation that triumphs.

But, I mean, we know with football that the phenomenon of Messi suggests to us that, I mean, always there are some players who are stars well beyond their local teams.

it.

Is this recent?

So, no.

It happened once the great split happened between North Korea and South Korea with the demarcation at the end of the Korean War.

And essentially at that point, the religious complexions of the two countries kind of reversed because the southern part of the Korean Peninsula was largely Buddhist, and respecting kind of the honor for the old Korean empire, which had since faded away under the Japanese.

The Japanese had installed a very tough regime.

I tell you, it's really interesting going to South Korea and what you see of what the Japanese did.

But North Korea... which had been the center of a huge Christian revival.

But please tell me so I don't make a fool of myself.

The

seat of St. Peter is vacant, and indeed appears to have been vacant, depending on who you listen to, either since 1958 or 1963.

And so in the absence of a pope, what are they going to do about having true bishops who can guide the faithful? So on the 16th of June, they made a really quite amazing announcement.

They are going to consecrate Michael Mary, the leader of the Order of the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, who's pretty old.

I think he's 85 in age.

They're going to consecrate him as a bishop in absolute defiance of Catholic rules.

Wow.

So, yeah, OK, so just quickly rewinding, on what grounds did they make this decision or come to this conclusion that the Catholic Church, as we know it, with billions of followers and a fairly understood framework, how have they come to this conclusion?

Right.

And that's hardly surprising.

But I think the other reason for the backward step is this.

Southern Baptists, through various reasons, have become more and more biblical literalists.

And this is intriguing because...

The tendency in a lot of denominations is becoming less literalistic in your reading of the Bible.

And the southern bats have gone the other direction.

That's insane.

It was the Holy Trinity Brompton, I thought so.

That's right.

Yes, absolutely.

Holy Trinity Brompton.

And Brompton is, you know, really upmarket West End.

And so this program took off and it became incredibly popular.

There are various rivals to it that think they've altered it around a bit.

Any Nick Cave fans out there will know that Brompton Oratory is a Nick Cave song from one of his best albums, and I was trying to think whether it was the same church, but that's the Catholic church across the road.

BFN!

Oh, what's this bloody music? Hold on, hold on before you start the next record.

Take me to a commercial.

Yeah, because you could imagine that they'd keep it as simple as God is not in the machine so we will not, you know.

Yeah, but it's not simplistic like that and clearly it's been worked through with people who know something about the subject and there's been careful discussions going on.

But of course, he also needs to prove in typical papal fashion that this is consistent with a line of Vatican teaching going back centuries.

So it's a more complicated mode of reasoning than you or I might feel the duty to undertake.

But the discussion of human rights is pretty interesting because one thing that has occurred is that historically, you could quote the Catholic Church back in the mid-19th century as furious with the notion of human rights.

W- w- what's, what's the problem with the pets?

So, the, the pets are seen as unclean.

That's to say, I mean, we're reading a bit between the lines, but there are, there's some literature that would suggest that in Exclusive Brethren eyes, the Old Testament regulations about filth and dogs, um, has somehow got caught up in an interpretation that says these are vile creatures, and they're taking people away from their devotion to God, and so they need to go.

Is this really happening?

Yes, it is, and I'm sure it's happening in New Zealand as well, um, because the edict was announced at the beginning of May, and, um, they are to confess their ownership to pets and to declare what they've done with them in their local assemblies, um, th- this month.

So we can expect possibly some people who love their dogs more than God will leave the Exclusive Brethren over this.

Um, but I mean, let's face it, Exclusive Brethren have to put up with a mighty lot of interference [laughs] in their lives, so perhaps this will not be the breaking point.

Uh, okay, w- what, what's the problem with the pets?

So the, the pets are seen as unclean.

That's to say, uh, I mean, uh, we're reading a bit between the lines, but there are, there's some literature that would suggest that in Exclusive Brethren eyes, the Old Testament regulations about filth and dogs, um, has somehow got caught up in an interpretation that says these are vile creatures, and they're taking people away from their devotion to God, and so they need to go.

Is this really happening?

Yes, it is, and I'm sure it's happening in New Zealand as well, um, because the edict was announced at the beginning of May, and, um, they are to confess their ownership to pets and to declare what they've done with them in their local assemblies, um, this month.

So we can expect possibly some people who love their dogs more than God will leave the Exclusive Brethren over this.

Um, but, I mean, let's face it, Exclusive Brethren have to put up with a mighty [laughs] lot of interference in their lives, so perhaps this will not be the breaking point.

Explain to me how it is that the same people can sort of wave away when he talks about potentially wiping out a civilization, wave away when he has a sort of locker room chat about women, but then he posts a picture of himself depicting Jesus and it's too far.

Well, it's pretty horrifying when you think of the way in which many supporters of Trump kind of compare him to a king in the Old Testament slaughtering anybody he possibly can in the name of God.

And that kind of interpretation, which has been pushed by Peter Heggs at the Secretary for War, seems to command a fair bit of support with those sorts of people who think that success is the measure of blessing.

And I think that's the heart of it.

with this image i've got the image in front of me now i mean he's standing with an american flag behind him and figures silhouetted presumably american troops in the distance and warp planes

He just makes these jokes.

Oh, I quite agree.

But you see, Trump has no sense of appropriateness around him And he expects his acolytes to sing his praises.