How do you run a diagnostic to understand where a founder is or, you know, generation one in their own head space and understanding what control being passed on looks like in summary form on, on those six different aspects that you brought up?

I think the key thing is, is to watch, uh, behavior more than titles.

You know, people often pay a lot of attention to, uh, when the titles have shifted or compensation shifts, things like that, but they pay, uh, less attention to how decisions are being made and whether those decisions get reversed and, and things like that.

So when the title has moved but the authority hasn't moved, uh, you tend to see three different things.

Uh, first of all, you can see something going on at the next level down in the management, uh, uh, not with the founder and successor per se, but with the other executives.

You can ask yourself, who do they go f- go to for the real decisions? Uh, if the CFO briefs the new successor CEO and then confirms things with dad, then the, uh, org chart is, is, uh, not telling the real story.

Employees are excellent at reading where the actual power lives because they, they can't afford to be wrong about that sort of thing.

How would people find that?

Paul, your views?

Yeah, I think Jess put it very well.

One way I think about early development is that it often occurs outside in.

That is to say, we build a sense of ourself by identifying with important people around us, And partly by opposing them, that's normal.

We'll try on values or roles or ambitions or expectations, but we also push away from things that don't feel like us.

I think that gives rise to the patterns that Jess was alluding to.

If responsibility arrives before there's too much, I'm sorry, before there's enough of the inside-out development, you see either over-identification or opposition or sometimes avoidance or performance in the sense of performative behavior where people are kind of going through the motions to appear the way they are expected to appear.

Paul, I wonder whether there's a link there between why information doesn't automatically translate into readiness and what we would see as those positive attributes that we spoke about that are available to the rising gen.