Yep

... and they say, "Look, do you ne- do you wanna get a lawyer?" And she thinks, "Oh, look, the only lawyer I know is the one that did my will, and I d- I haven't done anything wrong, so I don't need a lawyer." She goes to the cop shop, does a record of interview, answers, I think, something like 351 questions over a couple of hours.

The allegations they put to her are that two men, now in their late 30s, have just come forward-

Yeah

... to the crown prosecutor from the office of the DPP, he said, um, "Did anybody get any...

Did the DPP get any medical evidence?" And the crown prosecutor says, "No, Your Honor.

That's one of the first things that I thought of, um, when I read this." And he also says words to the effect, I know it's not the exact quote, but it's-

Mm.

He was in charge of scientific.

He's left the police force on good terms and gone to work for the Commonwealth Attorney General's department in a particular role.

Um, uh, in 1989, one day, the media's called up to police headquarters.

Um, "You gotta leave your, you know, all your recording devices behind.

This is an off the record briefing.

This is a big deal, a big sto- a big story is brewing." And they're then briefed in great detail about how the New South Wales Police, um, have been reinvestigating a series of historical rapes.

Mm.

But, uh, you know, as your book demonstrates, it's not often the case.

In- indeed.

I think they call it in, the CSI effect because you see programs like CSI on TV, and the forensics are always perfect, and they're always solved pretty quickly, and, and forensics and DNA never lies.

It's not quite that simple, and, um, I mean, in the book, there's one case where DNA was the only evidence against a young man who'd been accused of rape.

It was the only evidence.

Um, there was nothing else, and, uh, I mean, you talk about the reasons for things going wrong in that case and one, and one or two others.

Yeah.

I don't think that is the case, but it's an example where expert evidence should've been called, the fa- a failing of the DPP.

How do you have confidence that they're truly innocent?

It's, it's really difficult because you're obviously very nervous.

They've been convicted by the state.

They've been, they've been charged by the police.

They've gone to the courts.

Judges and juries have said, "You're guilty," and, uh, they go to jail.

And to question that is, is really difficult.

Can you tell us about this case? Because, uh, you imagine '79 to 2010, that's a long period of time to, to go back and get hard evidence.

But tell us about this grudge.

One of the boys who's sort of the lead, the lead protagonist in, uh, of, of the two, it turns out that he gives evidence that at one stage, um, way back 30 years earlier when he was being taught, he was a bit of a teacher's pet.

But then there was an incident where Jo Greensill noticed that, oh, there was 10 bucks missing out of her purse, and she's, uh, understandably a bit cranky, and she's, she goes through the school bags, and she finds it, the 10 bucks, $10 note, in the school bag of this guy who has been the teacher's pet.

So there's a bit of a falling out.

You might think that's a trivial incident that, you know, as a, an eight-year-old boy, you might not be very happy, but it wouldn't l- live with you for the rest of your life.

Not the case.

In her trial on these charges, the wife, or sorry, ex-wife of, uh, the man known only as RS, um, because they can't be identified, the ex-wife says she remembers him saying years earlier, "Oh, I was hard done by by this teacher when I was at primary school.

It feels to me like he wants, like he wants to go home.

Is it though?

I've gotta tell you, [laughs] it sounds crazy.

I, I find it difficult to get my head around.

Dr. Colin Mannick, eventually, a number of other experts, the, the evidence against him became overwhelming, and he, in fact, withdrew some of his own evidence that he'd given at the trial.

Th- Henry Keough was accused of killing his fiancée by drowning her in the bath, and Dr. Mannick had this theory which seems to have dated back to Britain in about 1912, 1914, when there was a case, a famous case apparently, called The Bride's in the Bath, and a man had been married or about to be married, and three of his fiancées or wives had been found drowned in the bath, and he'd profited.

So Dr. Mannick thinks he's got his own...

And it was a famous case, a famous case, and I think Dr. Mannick thought he had his own bride in the bath case.

Yeah.

Mm

...

some of her relatives, but nevertheless, he stood...

Well, the crown's argument was, the motive was greed.

He stood to gain all this money in insurance policies.

Henry said, "Look, I was writing these to get commissions.

Uh, Anna Jane, my fiancée, knew about them, but she didn't want to sign them." Uh, she was working for the Law Society at the time, as it turned out.

Due to fetal alcohol syndrome?

Mm-hmm.

And according to the cops, this is what happened, briefly.

Eric gets, walks out of the pub, meets up with another bloke called Terry.

The cops say they see him handing over some drugs.

The cops yell out, "Police.

Honeysett, stop." And unsurprisingly, Eric [laughs] does not stop, but bolts up a laneway, climbs over a corrugated fence, and, um, tries to escape.

Uh, the cops say they, uh...

Yeah

I found that to be a bit of a motivator for you and your inquisitive and award-winning style of journalism.

Gary, you're probably right.

It was probably in my subconscious for a long time because it happened when I was eight years old.

I grew up in Perth and I was in primary school.

I was eight years old and one morning my primary school teacher didn't turn up.

And I certainly knew the reason why because it was on the front page of the West Australian, the local paper.

And my dad happened to be a news agent.

And yet there is still language barriers and colour prejudices existing in some courts and certainly have been in past decades.

I found that to be a bit of a motivator for you and your inquisitive and award-winning style of journalism.

Gary, you're probably right.

It was probably in my subconscious for a long time because it happened when I was eight years old.

I grew up in Perth and I was in primary school.

I was eight years old and one morning my primary school teacher didn't turn up.

And I certainly knew the reason why because it was on the front page of the West Australian, the local paper.

And my dad happened to be a news agent.

And yet there is still language barriers and colour prejudices existing in some courts and certainly have been in past decades.

Mm.

And according to the cops, this is what happened, briefly.

Eric gets, walks out of the pub, meets up with another bloke called Terry.

The cops say they see him handing over some drugs.

The cops yell out, "Police.

Honeysett, stop." And unsurprisingly, Eric [laughs] does not stop, but bolts up a laneway, climbs over a corrugated fence, and, um, tries to escape.

Uh, the cops say they, uh...

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

And according to the cops, this is what happened, briefly.

Eric gets, walks out of the pub, meets up with another bloke called Terry.

The cops say they see him handing over some drugs.

The cops yell out, "Police.

Honeysett, stop." And unsurprisingly, Eric [laughs] does not stop, but bolts up a laneway, climbs over a corrugated fence, and, um, tries to escape.

Uh, the cops say they, uh...

Yeah

Like, y- y- you talked about multiple different, uh, factors, but how important is that for people once, once they get themselves in a s- in, in a sticky situation?

Mate, it's, it's incredibly important.

And one of the cases, um, it's, it's the first chapter in fact, is about Josephine Greensill.

She's a semi-retired schoolteacher.

She's at home in suburban Melbourne, never been in trouble in her entire life.

Knock, knock, knock on the door, opens the door, three detectives.

Uh, long story short, "You're under arrest for being a child molester." Uh, she, she's just gobsmacked.

Mm.

Who was Henry Keogh and what led to his arrest and conviction?

Henry Keogh was a financial advisor.

He was about to get married to his fiancée, Anna Jane Chaney.

This is in South Australia, in Adelaide.

The day it all starts, it's March 1994.

They have drinks at a pub in the afternoon after work, like, you know, they look like any happy couple.

They're about to get married.

Tell us about Andrew