Natuna Regency

And both of us have China as our largest trading partner.

But how do you think the Australian military sees, for instance, Prabowo's foreign policy with China and his invitation to work with China on territorial projects? that perhaps undermine core norms of Southeast Asian security? I mean, I'm thinking particularly, right, of the Natuna, the Northern Tunis Sea, and the invitation to China to develop that area and the kind of shock waves that that sent through ASEAN and potentially through Australia as well.

How does Indonesia see China and what's its perspectives on China? And how does Australia understand China? And how do you think that they talk about that amongst themselves?

Yeah, look, the critical question in what you've just said is how does Australia understand Indonesia's relationship with China? So I think we know how we see China.

It's essentially modeled on China's own use of maritime militias, but flipping the script back on them.

You have Malaysian Dayak and Malay fishermen in Borneo, along with Indonesian Malays in the Natuna Islands.

And they are constantly struggling with aggressive, coordinated incursions from Chinese fishing fleets and Coast Guard vessels.

Right.