As a scholar of civil military relations in Indonesia, what are you watching most keenly under the Prabowo government to measure shifts in civil military relations?

There are two areas I think we should look at.

One is remilitarization and the other is militarization.

So to understand both terms, remilitarization is about moving officers back in institutions where they've withdrawn from, which we would have seen during the reformacy era.

to some degree.

Militarization, I think, is about the infusion of a military way, a logic, even language that's sort of spreading into civilian life.

I think Jokowi gave us both of those things, and they've accelerated and intensified under Prabowo.

you know, higher levels of the command in other wings of the military that the force is going to become too distracted, particularly at a time in which global politics and defence capacity has sort of never been so important.

So tell us a little bit about what you were trying to achieve with this report and a little bit about Verve.

Thanks, Eric.

So just quickly about Verve itself.

We're an independent think tank and we focus largely on foreign and defense policy, defense industry, political violence, cyber and emerging tech.

We have 10 analysts who are based in Southeast Asia.

So our analysis really comes from the region, not just about it.

And so in that, we're trying to give greater nuance and voice to different perspectives, like you said, not just national ones, but subnational ones, about what's really going on in Southeast Asia to help public policy members and policymakers and other members who are interested in understanding Southeast Asia better.

What are they envisioning for the future, given the fact that the structures that have governed us for the past 75 years seem to be giving way?