you know sometimes you read some textualists and you'd think generally you just do the ordinary language linguistic meaning of the statute but then there are some exceptions when there's a legal term of art or legal terms and I tend to think that legal language is more pervasive and ultimately our goal is to determine the law that the text creates and sometimes that means it's not exactly what the linguistic meaning of the text is so So anyway, so I do think that we are rooted in the text, but those are some areas where there's some disagreements even among self-described textualists.

That's very helpful.

I think we're going to have a theme today, which is that Steve and I are going to agree on a lot of things.

So Aaron, your job will be to try to find areas where maybe we don't agree.

But I very much take all the things that you said.

You know, in general, I start with the text.

I often read not just the provisions that are at issue, but the entire public law that the provision is a part of, looking at the structure.

So what do we think here? Why don't we start with the DC

Okay

... areas where maybe we don't agree.

Um, but, but I very much take all the things that you said.

Um, uh, you know, in general, I start with the text.

I, I often read, um, not just the provisions that are at issue, but the entire public law that the provision is a part of, right? Looking at the structure.

Um, oftentimes you get meaning from looking at all the pieces together.

And I taught, um, I taught statutory interpretation for I think almost 11 years at George Mason, and I used to say to my students, and I, I think I believe this even more now as a judge, which is that interpretation is in part science, but a lot of it is a, is an art.

So here's a question: What are the indicators you look for as a judge in determining whether Congress has left such a gap for an agency to fill? Like how do you know, um, w- if it's, say, an express delegation, what does it mean to be express? Or how do you know this is one of those things where Congress says, "Even after Loper, even after Loper Bright, we still want you to defer"? How would you tell?