Montanism

So the moment that choice is offered, guess what happens the importance and priority of the scripture immediately diminishes significantly and it never comes back look at the churches where that happens and i can promise you claims of new revelation always displace the scripture thirdly extra biblical revelation will always lead to error in doctrine and failure in practice The church in Thyatira is a perfect example.

You know what's interesting? Eventually, this church, Thyatira, embraced the Montanist heresy, a movement led by a false prophet who claimed continuing revelation from God outside the Scripture.

History tells us this church disappeared by the end of the second century following the same course they were already on.

Number four.

Cyprian greatly admired Tertullian, thought he was a master, and he learned from his writings.

But he didn't embrace Montanism, and he remained a loyal and faithful bishop.

So that's the same thing with Origen.

If Origen learned from Saint Clement of Alexandria, that doesn't mean that Clement taught everything that Origen would then later subsequently teach.

if it be not a carnal intention my lord but as i judge a calling of the spirit that thou inquirest of us the faith of the catholic verity thou before all talling thy rise as far as appears from a streamlet at a distance and not holding to the fountain and source of the principal church shouldst in the first instance have shown what or how different are the opinions which thou followest thou shouldst unfold thyself as to what cause more particularly had loosened thee from the unity of our body for those parts for which a remedy is sought should be laid bare whereas now if i may so say the bosom of correspondence being closed we see not on what members more especially we have to bestow our care for such are the heresies which have sprung forth from the christian head that of the mere names the roll would be immense for to pass over the heretics of the jews Dosotheus, the Samaritan, the Sadducees, and the Pharisees, it were not long to enumerate how many grew up in the times of the apostles, Simon, Magus, and Beander, and Nicolaus, and others hidden by an inglorious fame.

What again in later times were Ebion, and Apolles, and Marcian, and Valentinus, and Cerdan, and not long after them, the Cataphrygians, and Novatians, not to notice any recent swarms, Whom then in my letters must I first refute? Wouldst thou the mere names of all, my paper will not contain them, unless indeed by your writings every way condemnatory of penance you declare your agreement with the Phrygians.

But, most illustrious lord, so manifold and so diverse is the error of these very men, that in them we have not only to overthrow their peculiar fancies against penance, but to cut off the heads, as it were, of some Lernian monster.

and in the first place they rely on more founders than one for i suppose blastus the greek is of them theodotus also and praxeas were once teachers of your party themselves also phrygians of some celebrity who falsely say they are inspired of lucius boast that they are instructed by proculus following montanus and maximilla and priscilla how manifold controversies have they raised concerning the day of easter the paraclete apostles prophets and many other disputes as this also concerning the catholic name the pardon of penance wherefore if we would discuss all these points thou hadst need been present and teachable but if on those points merely on which thou writest my instruction should not be sufficiently full yet as it is our duty to serve in whatsoever way we can those who solemnly adjure us we now for the sake of informing you discourse with thee summarily on those matters about which thou hast deigned to write to us if thou wouldst have fuller knowledge on our side thou must on thine declare thyself more unreservedly lest by somewhat of obscurity in thy inquiries thou leave us uncertain whether thou art consulting or censuring meanwhile and this concerns our present correspondence i would above all entreat thee not to borrow authority for error from this very fact that as thou sayest throughout the whole world no one has been found who could convince or persuade thee contrary to what thou believest for although we be unskilled most skilful is the spirit of god and if we are faithless faithful is god who cannot deny himself then also because it was not allowed the priests of god to contend long with one who resisted we says the apostle have no such custom neither the churches of god after one admonition as though thyself knowest the contentious is passed by for who can persuade any of anything against his will thine own fault was it therefore brother and not theirs if no one convince thee of what in itself is most excellent for at this day too it is in thy power to despise our writings also if thou hadst rather refute than approve them yet very many resisted both the lord himself and the apostles nor could any ever be persuaded of the truth unless he consented to it by his own religious feeling therefore my lord neither have we written with that confidence as though we could persuade thee if thou resistest but in that faith by which we would not deny thee an entrance to holy peace if thou willest which peace if it be after thine own soul and heart there ought to be no contest about the name of catholic for if it is through god that our people obtain this name no question is to be raised when divine authority is followed if through man you must discover when it was first taken then if the name is good no odium rests with it if ill it need not be envied the novatians i hear are called after novatus or novatian yet it is the sect which i accuse in them not the name nor has any one objected their name to montanus or the phrygians but under the apostles you will say no one was called catholic be it thus it shall have been so allow even that when after the apostles heresies had burst forth and were striving under various names to tear piecemeal and divide the dove and the queen of god did not the apostolic people require a name of their own whereby to mark the unity of the people that were uncorrupted lest the error of some should rend limb by limb the undefiled virgin of god was it not seemly that the chief head should be distinguished by its own peculiar appellation suppose this very day i entered a popular city when i had found marcionites apollinarians cataphrygians novatians and others of the kind who call themselves christians by what name should i recognise the congregation of my own people unless it were named catholic come tell me who bestowed so many names on the other peoples why have so many cities so many nations each their own description the man who asks the meaning of the catholic name will he be ignorant himself of the cause of his own name if i shall inquire its origin whence was it delivered to me certainly that which has stood through so many ages was not borrowed from man this name catholic sounds not of marcion nor of apelles nor of montanus nor does it take heretics as its authors many things the holy spirit hath taught us whom god sent from heaven to the apostles as their comforter and guide many things reason teaches us as paul saith and honesty and as he says nature herself what is the authority of apostolic men of primitive priests of the most blessed martyr and doctor cyprian of slight weight with us do we wish to teach the teacher are we wiser than he was and are we puffed up by the spirit of the flesh against the man whom his noble shedding of blood and a crown of most glorious suffering have set forth as a witness of the eternal god what thinkest thou of so many priests on this same side who throughout the whole world were compacted together in one bond of peace with this same cyprian what of so many aged bishops so many martyrs so many confessors come say if they were not sufficient authorities for the use of this name are we sufficient for its rejection and shall the fathers rather follow our authority and the antiquity of saints give way to be amended by us and times now putrefying through their sins pluck out the grey hairs of apostolic age and yet my brother be not troubled christian is my name but catholic my surname the former gives me a name the latter distinguishes me by the one i am approved by the other i am but marked and if at last we must give an account of the word catholic and draw it out from the greek by a latin interpretation catholic is everywhere one or as learned men think obedience in all i e all the commands of god whence the apostle whether ye be obedient in all things and again for as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous therefore he who is a catholic the same man is obedient he who is obedient the same is a christian and thus the catholic is a christian wherefore our people when named catholic are separated by this appellation from the heretical name but if also the word catholic means everywhere one as those first think david indicates this very thing when he saith the queen did stand in a vesture of gold wrought about with divers colours that is one amidst all and in the song of songs the bridegroom speaketh these words my dove my undefiled is but one she is the only one of her mother she is the choice one of her that bare her again it is written the virgins shall be brought unto the king after her and further virgins without number therefore amidst all she is one and one over all if thou askest the reason of the name it is evident but as to penance god grant that it may be necessary for none of the faithful that none after the help of the sacred font may fall into the pit of death and that priests may not be compelled to inculcate or to teach its tardy consolations lest whilst by remedies they soothe the sinner they open a road to sin but we lay open this indulgence of our god to the miserable not to the happy not before sin but after sins nor do we announce the medicine to the whole but to the sick if spiritual wickednesses have no power over the baptised none that fraud of the serpent which subverted the first man which hath printed on his posterity so many marks of condemnation if it hath retired from the world if we have already begun to reign if no crime steals over our eyes none over our hands none over our minds then let this gift of god be cast aside this help rejected be no confession no groans heard let a proud righteousness despise every remedy but if the lord himself hath provided these things for his own creature man if the same lord who hath bestowed remedies on the fallen hath given rewards to them that stand cease to accuse the divine goodness to erase by the interposition of your own rigour so many inscriptions of heavenly mercy or by inexorable harshness to prohibit the gratuitous good gifts of the lord this is not a largesse from our own bounty turn ye saith the lord even to me and with fasting and with weeping and with mourning and rend your heart and again let the wicked man leave his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and turn unto the lord and he shall obtain mercy and also after this manner crieth the prophet for he is gracious and merciful slow to anger and of great kindness and repenteth him of the evil hath the serpent so lasting a poison and hath not christ a remedy doth the devil kill in the world and hath christ no power here to help be we indeed ashamed to sin but not ashamed to repent be we ashamed to hazard ourselves but not ashamed to be delivered who will snatch the plank from the shipwrecked that he escape not who will grudge the curing of a wound doth not david say every night i will wash my bed i will water my couch with my tears and again i acknowledge my sin and mine unrighteousness have i not hid and yet more i said i will confess my sins unto the lord and so thou forgavest the wickedness of my heart Did not the prophet answer him when, after the guilt of murder and adultery, penitent for Bathsheba, the Lord also hath put away from thee thy sin? Did not confession deliver the king of Babylon when condemned after so many sins of idolatry? And what is it that the Lord saith, Shall he who has fallen not arise, and he who has turned not return? What answer give the subjects of those many parables of our Lord, that the woman findeth the coin and rejoiceth when she hath found it? that the shepherd carrieth back the wandering sheep? That when the son was returning, all his goods wasted in riotous living, with harlots and fornicators, the father with kindness met him, and assigning the grounds, chideth the envious brother, saying, This my son was dead, and is alive again, was lost, and is found.

A spouse, it is clear, but also a wife, and an helpmeet taken from her husband, and therefore bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.

For of her, David saith, thy wife shall be as the fruitful vine upon the walls of thine houses, thy children like the olive branches round about thy table.

great therefore is the progeny of this virgin and without number her offspring wherewith the whole world is filled wherewith the populous swarm ever throngs the circumfluous hive great is the care of that mother for her children and tender her affection the good are honoured the haughty are chastised the sick are cared for no one perishes no one is despised the young are kept safe under the indulgent protection of a mother The church is without spot or wrinkle, that is, without heresies, without Valentinus, without Cataphrygians, without Novatians, for in these are certain spotted and wrinkled folds, envious of the ornaments of the precious vesture.

But the sinner and the penitent are not a spot on the church, because as long as he sinneth and repenteth not, he is put without the church.

Many times they'll say, "Well, you know, he, he left the, the, the church," that's what Orthodox or Catholics will say, "when he got older.

He went to Montanism."

Mm-hmm.

But then in other r- resources, when they're using it, they like his quotes, they'll say, "Now, this was before he fell away, though.