and how the ability to understand what's actually happening outside of a transcript, how that's actually helped move the needle.

Yeah, absolutely.

So one of our first big customers outside of gaming was a Fortune 500 company in the food delivery space.

And they had come to us to try to protect their drivers.

it's shockingly frequent that you'll have a driver who's running a few minutes late on a delivery they'll get a call from an angry customer saying something along the lines of i'm going to kill you and that driver says i don't want to go to that person's front door anymore so that was the initial use cases help us understand when there's those kinds of aggressive emotions being portrayed and help identify calls that are worth the platform taking a closer look at They came back to us a week later and we asked, you know, how's the abuse detection going? And they almost didn't even want to talk about it because they were so excited about how much fraud we were finding for them.

And it turns out we had actually found five times more attempted scams against their drivers than their actual fraud detection tools, because those fraud detection tools were looking at things like metadata of suspicious numbers or, you know, is a weird transaction taking place after the fact.

But what we were doing was listening live to the call and saying things like, hey, this person is performing anger, but they don't actually demonstrate authentic anger.

So maybe can you walk us through What are those considerations for those people that are on the fence, right? Should I just go ahead and connect all my data and go put one of these agents live and see what happens? What's the right way to roll this out?

(laughs)

... convinced you..." Or, you know, "I've told you this tragic story about my children, and you really want to do your best to help me." Sometimes it's more sort of direct and antagonistic.

"Hi.

I'm definitely calling from the IRS, and you're about to be in grave trouble if you don't do this right now." All of those techniques, though, we can look both at the specific claims being made, and say, "Hey, are these, in fact, pressure tactics?" We can hear that both from the actual content of what's being presented, but we can also hear the agent on the other side saying things like, "I really need to check with my manager about that," or, "I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that this way," and especially look for the response of that person who's trying to manipulate you, really trying to push past those with some practice techniques.

Of course, there's emotional aspects of this as well.

You hear the sort of use of things like anger and aggression, or a kind of overplayed (laughs) tragedy in some cases-

Mm-hmm.

...

Talk us through how your kind of thinking and the company's thinking has evolved, and what you mean when you talk about online fraud.

Yeah.

Thanks again for having me back, Ben.

Excited to be here.

So as you may remember, Modulate is a pro-social voice intelligence company.

So what that means is we have this technology we've built that's able to analyze voice conversations in very, very rich ways, understand the emotions, the conversational dynamics and back and forth, and what we've been trying to do is leverage that in different environments where we can recognize sort of the deeper details of a conversation than you would get from a superficial text analysis or something like that, and say, "Where can we deploy that level of intelligence and insight to help protect users or give them a richer experience?" So, as you know, we got started in the games space looking at toxicity detection as well as positivity detection, but in the last few years, we've been working with a number of folks outside of the gaming space in more classic enterprise use cases around things like call centers or in the gig economy, and we're frequently asked......

"Hey, can you help us navigate some of these challenges around financial malfeasance that sort of fits nicely into this bucket of things that we're trying to do," but is a new challenge because, as I'm sure you know, there's a lot of different types of fraud or scams or abuse, which I can talk more about.

Talk us through how you see those differently.