Mm-hmm.

So when I think about now, one of the greatest things that I've been able to do has been able to think about what are the skills and the things that I have as a journalist and as someone in beauty, and how do you actually move that into something else? And I actually did Hillary Kerr's podcast a couple times, Second Life, where I'm like, "I feel like I'm on my third or fourth life at this point." But yeah, I think that through the years, I started at Allure in 2015 as editor-in-chief, and I was there for six years.

I left and I went to Netflix, which I'll talk a little bit more about why I think that's still relevant to the whole K-Beauty thing.

But basically in my days now at Front Row, we are an amazing growth agency that we work with in a lot of incredible beauty and wellness brands across every single type of facet, whether it's brand-building, generating demand, and then especially driving scale across marketplaces, so Amazon, TikTok Shop, and D2C specifically.

I think the way that I put on my editorial hat in a lot of ways is I think about, I am obsessed, as I'm sure you are too, with brands, right? Like, I always say I love founders so much because going back to that first year at Allure in 2015, it kind of culminated in that same time period that a lot of indie brands were just starting up.

And so I remember I actually went to, I think it was their first ever pop-up for Tatcha, and I met Vicky from Tatcha when she was still just getting the brand up and running.

And so meeting founders like that and seeing what it took to build those brands and to make them long-lasting brands Has always been something that I'm just fascinated with, and I, to this day, I'll have brand founders come up to me who maybe they're just starting out, and I love their stories so much.

How have they been able to quickly get these ingredients into the mainstream?

What's the biggest way you've seen K-beauty evolve over the last decade?

Yeah, it's been so fascinating to see because I think the first wave, God, how long has it been? Probably 10 or 12 years ago.

It was fascinating to a lot of people.

But I also think that a lot of Westerners felt like parts of it were a little bit strange, right? So the things that were really popping were things like snail mucin, which is still around as a wonderful ingredient.

But I think to Western audiences, it felt a little bit like almost very, very out there.

There was also a thread of cuteness, I think, that I feel like has kind of gone away a little bit now.

So if we look at that first wave of K-beauty, it was sort of like the just true like wow factor of like 10 step routine.

What should we Americans think about that process now? Is that still sort of the philosophy behind building a K-beauty routine?

So it bothers me a little that people think that you should only sing in the church.

I don't get it.

I don't get it.

I don't get it.

And again, just how you're saying it, I wrestled with that because that is what I was almost conditioned to feel.

I should feel convicted for singing these songs.

This ain't gospel.

Lord.

And I think with these events, um, as we're talking, sometimes you sell product, sometimes you gift product, and when you have that giftable moment, what's really gonna make it stand out and be something that people keep and treasure and come back to? And I think that customization and personalization element is what we're seeing really pop.

Definitely, yeah.

Agree with all of those things.

I think that there's definitely been a big boom in pop-ups post-COVID, but I think it's also part of this effect of beauty being more about community and being more about this connection, and also just our digital world, that a lot of times, unless there's a brand that's, like, kind of, you know, fully all over in retail, it's really hard to experience the, that brand as lifestyle.

And so pop-ups are this way that you can really live this, like, physical embodiment of a brand, to have fun.

What Jacqueline was saying also about starting with, you know, it all comes down to brand and it comes down to making sure that the guest is having a really great time.

I think it's so important for brands to understand who they're partnering with to help them build everything, that that person is really starting from the why and from the emotion of everything.

Are you gonna have enough money to make a splash when you're in those concentrated moments? And are the people that you really hope are going to say yes to your RSVP list going to say yes to your branded event at a really cluttered cultural moment in time? Those are all things I encourage my clients to think about.

[laughs]

That same eyeshadow palette in the hands of a professional makeup artist, I'm like, "How, how did you do this?" Right? It's the exact same thing with skincare and dermatology and all the things, that having a machine doesn't mean that you know how to use it properly, doesn't mean that you have it at the right setting.

And so I would say about Zerf, as with laser, Pico, anything, you have to do your research on where to go, and also not just look at social media.

I think that the scary thing to me is I have seen tons of clinics on TikTok, and I'm like, that is so shady.

Like typ- typically, and again, not painting everybody with the same brush, but typically if there are just a ton of influencers going to a clinic in Korea, I'm- ... kind of dubious about th- that one.

And again, there's plenty of places where it's just this little, you know, dermatology office, that sometimes those are the best ones.

And I feel like there are enough people who we all know who either live in Korea or, like, go all the time, that they have great recommendations.

Mm.

Yeah.

But it doesn't, it doesn't always translate to being beautiful, right? And I think beauty's so much more than being wrinkle-free or having no pores or have a perfectly smooth skin.

It's, there's a X factor to it, right? And there's some people, I'm sure you've met many of them, that they have wrinkles, and they don't have perfect skin, and they just radiate this beauty, and we don't 100% know what it is because they're...

Beauty is about harmony, proportions, and a inner radiance, right? So I think right now, um, it's a challenge for the aesthetics field because you have to say, like, well, if you have hyper-focused on one thing, like, you know, "I want to reduce wrinkles, I want the skin to be pigment-free, or all my pores to be poreless, glass skin," when you get so hyper-focused on one thing, sometimes that's a very slippery slope and a very dangerous slope because then you, you don't look human.

Um, I've seen...

I mean, there are people with flawless skin, but then they just look...

It's too flawless.

Yeah.

[laughs]

[laughs] And so on top of, again, personally just really being fascinated with all the treatments and procedures and all the things, I also spend a lot of time in stores there.

And it's, again, partly personal, but also I love doing market research.

And so of course I'll go to Olive Young, I'll go to some other, um, beauty stores as well.

But then there's also this thriving world of Korean pharmacies.

And so actually when you go to the Korean pharmacy, there's a lot of PDRN products that are not familiar to us yet here.

And so I bought something, um...

Like, what's your early memory of PDRN and discovering it? When did you try the injectables or first try topicals? Like, what's your personal history with the ingredient?