How do you do those things with visitors, I guess, is the question.

So I think the first thing is that they see someone like me interpreting.

I have to say this.

A lot of places will say, well, have somebody doing the interpreting.

And I don't mean you always have to have it has to be color coordinated.

But I do think there is a value in me doing that and not someone who is not, let's just say politely, not like me.

If you see an African-American male or African-Caribbean male, you know, you'd understand a lot of the cooks in the houses, especially in the 18th century, were men.

Where did you grow up exactly, and how did that shape your interest in food culture?

2012 maybe 2013 the latest and I remember meeting Michael there and I hope I'm right that that was the first time I met him but I remember he was like what's up and I'm like who is this gay guy I love him so much we're best friends and it was you know it was really love at first sight I'd say does your family have any food traditions that you would consider unique

Whoa, okay.

My grandmother, blessed memory, would always make a, I don't know, I don't wanna call it a stock pot, it was never a recipe.

It was everything that could go in a pot that was like, odds and ends and bits.

So the end of the onion didn't get wasted.

The carrots, the celery, bits of greens.

You know what I'm saying? Like if you're making collard greens, technically you throw the collard greens stems in there.

Alabama.

In the morning.

Yeah.

Family would have already eaten breakfast by then.

So your job between 9:00 and 2:00 is the biggest hustle of the day.

That's the time period when you have to pull together the main meal, 'cause remember, [laughs] there's no, [laughs] there are no... [laughs] Like, it's not like Disney movies where there are all these candles, right? People eat and socialize with natural light and firelight.

By the time the true supper comes on, it's gonna be dark, and those are generally leftovers.

So you have to think about people going to a garden, um, the keys to the pantry being opened by, um, the lady of the house.

Is there one specific dish that you can tell me about that's sort of like this was sort of the, the way it was done before James went to France, and then how was it adapted when it became this sort of half Virginian, half French thing?

It became popular when it was sold on Philly streets by Black women known as pepper pot women, some of the first American street vendors.

Street hawking of food was a big thing for enslaved Africans and free people of color, especially before

Like Shola, Michael notes that the soup is more about an idea than a rigid set of flavors.

One of the most important elements of African-American creolization was improvisation.

Mm-hmm.

People don't understand.

Indigenous Southerners still exist and exist both in those states and in Oklahoma.

Um, so when you understand that and put all those things together, Francis, what you get is a much deeper, broader picture.

I mean, the best example I can give you is going to Senegal and after being at the fish markets in Charleston and Savannah many times and seeing all the same fish and peop- and I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute, that makes sense." No, not exactly.

You know, when you go to the fish market in Somerset, most of the fish are completely different even though it's the same ocean.

When we're talking about the Southern Atlantic and also, like, these African people who are fishing, who are cooking, who are doing a lot but not all of the work, you begin to see the connections between the cultures and the people and what defines a Southern seafood table.

Mm-hmm.