Michael Trautmann

So that project was shut down.

But that's when we met and that's where we realized and kind of, I think, vice versa, figured out together with our third founding partner back in the day, Michael Trautmann, who was my boss at the ad agency where I was working.

that could be a good group of people to think about cool stuff.

And so, yeah, in the end, in 2017, we met again and said, let's try.