Michael Santucci

And it's good that we have them in some countries just to see how they work, and they do, they do yield better outcomes.

Um, but yeah, it's, uh, for other countries like particularly the US, which is a much more liberal country, uh, I often have this discussion with, uh, with, with, with our friend Michael Santucci, um, who always says, "No, regulation's not gonna work." Um-

Right

... "You, you people got to bring in their own solutions." And, and I think so guidelines and things like the UW-Wau standards, uh, can, for many countries, can be a better option.