And it's the definition of humane is so much wider than what we consider.

I was going to say in the, you know, periodically I'll get somebody on that will be either an ATF agent or DEA agent or whatever.

Raymond Hicks there's a he's a sheriff's deputy who was in the is it Broward County Broward County he was in Broward County sheriff's deputy they had taken him and they were using him to do under control buys because he grew up in the streets right so you know it's hard for a normal cop to come off like a drug dealer you know he's a even if it's a black guy right like if he's a black guy raised upper middle class drug dealers they talk to you for five minutes go absolutely not Like you're trying to talk this, but I can feel it's not you.

You know, intuition is insane, right? So Hicks goes out and he's one of these guys selling drugs and they're busting people.

But the other deputies are stealing money.

Like they're taking money from the drug dealer.

So he starts to speak out about it, starts to complain about it, starts to make waves.

Like that's all part of that cognitive bias that distorts your point of view.

Talk people through how this actually happens to the average person where they may have no idea what's going on.

Part of the problem with that question is that there's so many ways to do it.

I give you a very brief explanation.

I could drive through your neighborhood, look at your house, and then I could just get the address.

I could then go down to the local coffee shop, sit in the coffee shop on my computer.

I could then go on public records.

I could get the deed to your house.

Talk people through how this actually happens to the average person where they may have no idea what's going on.

Oh, this guy, he would have been okay three years ago, but now

Maybe not, you know? Exactly.

But not that the bar is high.

It's still pretty low.

It's really, can you tell a story? Do you have a semi-story and do you tell a story? Because I would rather have a guy that could tell his story Maybe he doesn't have a substantially amazing story, right? Right.

Maybe he's got some – whatever.

He's a drug dealer, right? And he's been in and out of jail, but he's hilarious and he can tell his story and it's funny and he's great energy.

Was it difficult for you to share and say, hey, yeah, this is what I am and this is what I did?

Was it difficult for you to share and say, "Hey, yeah, this is what I am and this is what I did"?

Um, I would say that when I first read an article about me, myself, I was extremely offended.

They were calling me a con man, and I clearly was a con man, and I clearly was a fraudster, and I clearly ...

But you just don't see yourself how you really are.

And to me, I was like, "I can't ...

I'm not ...

They said this, and they ...

Right

So the person you want to honor criminals, then that's what makes the show

special.

No, no, we, we, we have, I would say maybe 10% are, are former law enforcement, or maybe it's a journalist that wrote a book about, about a crime, but I mean, it's all crime based, right? So anyway, so eventually those people are saying, Hey, I'll fly myself from California.

I'll put myself in a hotel.

I'll put myself, you know, so you don't have to really do that anymore.

And now, now it's a matter of how do we sift through these people? You know, you're sifting through, it's like, now you're getting so many submissions.

You're like, Oh, this guy, he would have been okay three years ago, but now Maybe not.

Was it difficult for you to share and say, hey, yeah, this is what I am and this is what I did?

Once the property title was put in your name because you did this, what would you typically do with it?

So this is the thing.

It, it depends on the house, right? Like, i- if...

I've refinanced houses in the homeowner's name while the homeowner was living in the house, and even when they had a lien on it.

What I did was, I'll give you one example, I, you know, drove by the house, got the guy's name.

I created a fake s- uh, a fake appraisal in hi- uh, saying he, of course, he owned the house, and the house was worth several hundred thousand dollars.

I then went to several banks.

So how long were you able to get away with this before you were finally caught and how were you caught?

Mm.

So they owed $400, I'll pay the $400.

So anyway, I end up, so w- while I'm in Charlotte, it, I mean, this is how brazen it was.

While I'm in Charlotte I end up going to, uh, Columbia, South Carolina.

There's a guy named Gary Sullivan, which I had, was a homeless guy that I had a, an ID in his name.

I buy two houses.

I borrow 1.3 million or 4 million.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And while we're doing the live, guys are saying, "Hey, you need to have this guest, this guest," and somebody said Jeremy Meeks, and I said, "Listen, this is the problem with you guys." I said, "You guys are constantly telling me who I need to have, but you're not giving me the information.

Like, I've, I've reached out to these people.

I've reached out to Jeremy Meeks.

If you know how to get in touch with him, let me know." I even sent his agent an email I mean, every, I've, I've done everything I can.

I'm like, "I can't get the guy." And so I said that.

I said, "I'd love to interview him." Mm.

Wow.

All right, Matt, I gotta know, what is the craziest thing you got away with?

I...

Well, I, [laughs] um, oh gosh, you know, I, I actually did a, a seminar a couple days ag- or go and, uh, I did a...

A- And they were asking me that exact same thing.

I, I don't know about getting away with.

I, I know that at one point I had borrowed $1.3 million in, uh, Columbia, South Carolina, and I got arrested in the bank by the local police department and br- handcuffed, brought downtown, but they didn't know I was Matthew Cox, and I was actually number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list at that time.

They brought me downtown, let me fill out a police report, and I convinced them not to arrest me.

Talk about that gap and why that becomes a real challenge for anyone trying to protect their home.

All right, Matt, I got to know, what is the craziest thing you got away

with? Well, I, oh gosh, you know, I actually did a seminar a couple of days ago and I did a, and they were asking me that exact same thing.

I don't know about getting away with, I know that At one point, I had borrowed $1.3 million in Columbia, South Carolina, and I got arrested in the bank by the local police department and handcuffed, brought downtown, but they didn't know I was Matthew Cox.

And I was actually number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list at that time.

They brought me downtown, let me fill out a police report, and I convinced them not to arrest me.

I convinced them that... that maybe one of the, or several of the loan officers at the banks had made some mistakes and maybe they were doing some kind of, committing some kind of fraud, but I certainly wasn't.

And I actually argued with the detective and the head of Wachovia's fraud department, and I convinced them to let me go.

Talk about that gap and why that becomes a real challenge for anyone trying to protect their home.

[sneezes]

They were all...

Bless you, Toby.

Uh, they were all, um, they were all eccentric in their own way, obviously, the first three.

Uh, but I think Tom Baker's the first one that comes in and he's just an outright weirdo, which I think, uh, obviously is a lasting, uh, trait of the Doctor going forward after this.

I think it's really great.

And obviously that's quite relatable for a lot of fans as well, which is probably why he's a favorite of a lot of people, I think, as well.

Bye bye.

Right.

So it's a big investment.

And the problem is everybody thinks, oh, well, their, their title is safe.

But the truth is that, and I went to prison for this, I did 13 years for title theft, for bank fraud in a series of, uh, related, um, fraud charges that are all related to title theft.

And what I would do is I would just drive through somebody's neighborhood.

I'd drive through your neighborhood and I'd see your house, and if it looked good to me, I'd go to public records and I'd pull up the title to your house and, you know, and I could create a document, a title document, right? It's, it's called a warranty deed, on your house where it, where I would forge it and have you transfer the title to your house to me.

Or I would steal your identity.

Yeah.

Tell us back then what you did and how much easier it is today with the digital era on us.

Well, when I was committing this crime, I physically had to go downtown to public records, go in the courthouse.

I had to look everything up.

I had to physically go to the homes.

Physically, I had to go to the title closings.

I had to physically go into banks to open bank accounts.

So there was a lot involved.

Tell us a little bit about what you've learned when you engage with either the cops who've solved one of these crimes or trying to solve it, or you meet a victim who actually was victimized.

But tell us exactly what she did and what it has to do with your former line of work.

Well, so at one point, I was a mortgage broker and a brokerage business owner, so I've done lots and lots of owner occupancy fraud.

I mean, it is a common form of fraud, and I keep hearing that being said as if It justifies it.

Listen, people sell drugs all the time.

It's always illegal.

It's always a crime.

And I keep hearing these, I hate to say CNN, I'm not sure if I can say CNN, but I keep seeing these analysts on CNN and these former US attorneys, and they're all saying the same thing, which is she may have inadvertently checked a box.

What is, first of all, because I know you've told us your story many times, but for our audience who hasn't heard your story, how did you get into it and how exactly does it work for you to fly this under the radar and not get caught? Because I think you've explained to us in the past, I mean, there were cases that you didn't get caught for for years.

Yeah.

And, and so, you know, there's nowhere to really go that I'm, I could think of at the time.

Anyway, w-we get the money.

W- we, we're getting...

Well, get the money.

I'm building houses, I'm renovating houses, I'm buying houses, I'm borrowing money.

I meet this chick.

(laughs)

Mm-hmm.

He comes to me one day and he says, "Hey, Matt, listen, man." And I'm like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he goes, um...

He said, uh, uh, "I used to date a woman on the Tampa Police Department." And I'm like, "Okay." He goes, "She came to my house this morning." I'm like, "All right." And he goes, "She was recently on a task force that was handed over to the FBI." And I'm like, "Okay." And he said...

And she wanted...

He goes...

My name came up in the investigation.

Mm-hmm.

I schedule three different closings, close all three of them at the same time.

(laughs)

And we were in the middle of refinancing properties in Orlando, same...

It's a...

I didn't talk about this, but it was a whole nother scheme.

And we're putting that money into the banks and pulling the money out.

So, literally when my buddy goes to pull out some money, he drops the money off to me, and I call Kevin White, and he comes, and I give him...

I dr- well, I, first I tried to give him like cash.

Mm-hmm.