Mark McAfee

And so I wanted to look more closely and understand more about the raw milk movement.

You know, how it had grown, who were some of the leaders in it? And also, what does the science say about raw milk? And so in the early days of my reporting, I reached out to Mark McAfee, the founder of Raw Farm, which is the largest unpasteurized dairy in the country, which is based in the Fresno area.

McAfee has long maintained that raw milk has health benefits and that it could be safe if it is done correctly.

But his perspective differs from the longstanding research that shows raw milk is not safe and that it has no proven nutritional benefits over its pasteurized counterpart.

And most scientists agree that it doesn't have any substantial nutritional benefits compared to its pasteurized counterpart.

But for many of the consumers, including many of the consumers that we spoke with, their lived experience and understanding may not be changed by the established science.

So tell us a little bit about Mark McAfee.

First of all, you go out to his operation about 20 miles out of Fresno.

And California had always permitted raw milk to be sold in stores, but in Los Angeles County, they always had very stringent rules that had, in effect, had curbed retail sales.

So around the same time that Mark McAfee converted his farm into raw milk, food freedom advocates had successfully petitioned Los Angeles County to weaken regulations, and this provided McAfee with a whole pool of customers, including, you know, other raw dairy producers as well.

And this seems to have happened again and again in states, you know, across the country.

Local governments, you know, as the internet and also social media influencers have really, uh, you know, led more and more people to get into raw milk.

Thanks so much for having me.

Annie Waldman is a reporter for ProPublica covering healthcare.

Her latest is a deep dive into one of the most prolific producers and promoters of raw milk products.

It is entitled The Milk Man.

Well, you know, when you outsource your food like they do at the public schools, you know, where you're getting like a lot of commodity things and you're getting a lot of packaged foods, and you don't know the practices, right? So when you can shake your farmer's hand and you see them at the farmers' market, I mean, I know not everybody can do this, but when you establish relationships with the people that are raising your, your food or growing your food, then you have transparency.

You know, we just talked about Mark McAfee, like, you know, he's been a friend of mine for almost 20 years from Raw Farms, and like he invite...

We were just there last weekend, and he's invited 2,000 people to his farm to see how he farms.

That's what you want, right? You wanna know your farmer so you know the quality of your food.