Mark Francois

So why would they want to join up? But it all changes if there is a real threat, if something actually happens.

It's the lines Mark Francois quoted from Kipling.

It's Tommy this and Tommy that and chuck him out the brute.

But it's savior of the country when the guns begin to shoot.

Well, this is what the opposition spent a long time debating with the Secretary of State.

The Shadow Defence Minister, Marc Francois, interrupted him when he was talking about them using this phrase of new and compelling evidence in the bill.

And he said that he welcomed its use, but he said that that only applies in terms of witnesses.

but not with respect to suspects.

So, Sian, how did MPs who are veterans actually vote?

Well, they predominantly voted against the bill.

However, some veterans who are serving ministers, like the Defence Minister's Calvin Bailey, Louise Sander-Jones, voted in favour, which, of course, you would expect.

They have to vote with the government or else they would stand to lose their jobs.

And you cannot build a strong future without fully understanding the past.

A Conservative shadow Defence Minister, Marc Francois, said the government had got itself into a terrible mess over the bill.

It's obvious that veterans don't support the government's amendments because they're very clear in their own mind that the bill, even amended, still provides a mechanism to pursue them via lawfare to the advantage of those such as Sinn Féin.

The process still remains the punishment and the ultimate outcome is still the same.

It was right that they were honoured, the George Cross.

It was wrong that they were so disgracefully dishonoured through the changes that were brought about in policing.

A Labour former Defence Minister, Al Carnes, argued that the legislation didn't offer enough protection to veterans.

I'm still deeply concerned that this bill opens up the floodgates to hundreds of lawyers to pursue what can only be described as a strategic effort to rewrite history, to paint the state as the aggressor, and indeed to use the process as the punishment to hit back at our brave servicemen and women who served in Northern Ireland.

The advantage of that system is it means that people who want to use motorways and trunk roads pay a little bit more so that they're able to do so, but people who only, only use their car for very local purposes don't have to pay that cost

A Conservative, Mark Francois, recalled a system he saw while on holiday in Texas

So they have a chip basically in the windscreen or attached to the windscreen, which allows you to transition from, as it were, public roads to toll roads and back again, and the chip records what you pay as you go from one to the other

So the technology to charge motorists was readily available, he said, but the worry was that the government might be a bit too keen to use it.

Okay, well, I want to show you what your former colleague, I mean, you like Marc Francois, right? You think he's a good guy?

Yeah, I always got on all right with Mark Francois.

What's he had to say? Well,

he has said that actually the main stumbling block in any potential future coalition agreement between the Conservative Party and Reform UK, and I know you're going to say you don't want one, but who knows? It may become necessary.