Mariana Mazzucato

Exactly.

I mean, look, there's a whole economic playbook, right? Mariana Mazzucato has been a real leader in this, in how to structure state missions in a way that minimizes grift, maximizes innovation and productivity.

results in the right balance of rewards to private actors in the corporate sector with spinoffs to society in the state.

It's not like any of this is a mystery.

No, you're right.

But, but Mariana Mazzucato, in my understanding, has, has talked to the Labour Party.

They understand about joined up thinking, and that wasn't even having to come to talk to Jamie Driscoll, who presumably they all hate because you do show them up.

Why are they...

domain, but

I guess a hypothesis or an observation of Mariana Mazzucato would perhaps be that it's In several more domains, there's actually, underneath this layer of liberal veneer, there's also lots of support for fundamental research through government, through the Secretary of Defense, that really... actually keeps the economy afloat in the US where it keeps going.

So I found that fascinating.

Do you think that, because, no, okay, let's get to one notion before we go into the details.

This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I'm Amy Goodman with Anjali Khamet.

We're joined now by the Italian-American economist Mariana Mazzucato.

She has advised governments, policymakers, and even the Pope on economic policy.

Mariana Mazzucato is a professor in the economics of innovation and public value at UCL.

That's University College London.

She's founding director of the UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose.

But again, coming back to the point that there is varieties of capitalism, and I think currently there's no perfect form of capitalism out there, but the point of the book is to give lots of different examples where we can learn from, instead of just talking about utopia, and then ask what would it mean to scale that, to actually make it also so the sum is bigger than the parts, instead of cute little examples here and there.

The Common Good Economy, How to Make Capitalism Work for Us All.

Uh, let me share this.

If you go around economists, the sort of the blue blood of the economists with the right pedigree, uh, Mariana Mazzucato is hated.

Oh.

Yeah, she's hated, uh, because she plays by different set of rules.

That essay has now dropped online, and we will share a gift link in the show notes.

Also in the issue, Hal Brands with an actual survival guide for companies and countries, Mariana Mazzucato on how to rebuild the IMF, World Bank, and other institutions with what she calls the common good in mind, and Michael Beckley on how the countries that are cash rich but labor poor need to strike a grand bargain with the ones that are cash poor but labor rich.

All of that, plus an essay by me on how Trump has peaked.

I'm actually gonna share my thoughts on that one in a bonus episode later this week.

These are all things which you can use to justify almost anything, like the entrepreneurial state.

So Mariana Mazzucato the other day tweeted something about Notting Hill Carnival, which she apparently is a fan of, and said we should see this as social infrastructure and this should be part of our industrial policy.

And this just shows this mindset.

You can literally anything that you like and point at it and say this is social infrastructure.